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GTB · Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject:

Man has been playing god for a couple of millenia now and virtually every square mile of this planet has been altered because of it. The hunting of foxes is just another of his god-like pastimes which he felt he was entitled to.

eyestrange · Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject:

totally agree GTB with the above.....we will be the ones that wipe out ourselves due to this :?

your right too Lass IMHO.......there is no need, its just an amusement to entertain in most cases, unfortunately.
It is an emotive subject and folk will have strong views for and against.

GTB · Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject:

What about Game Shooting then??

Attrebates · Aspiring Calnite Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 98 Status:

HOORAY !! At long last a discussion.

Eyestrange, Please don't ever apologise for expressing a view. You have an RIGHT (or even a duty) to express a view in a discussion so please continue to do so.

GTB Game shooting & fishing as mentioned earlier in the thread.

As far as the farmer is concerned, the fox or badger, allegedly is more of a pest than rats,mice & cockroaches. The larger mammals not only spread disease they kill for the sake of killing which cost the farmer (& subsequently you and me) MONEY.

Going back to rats & mice. In the past they may have been a pest to grain growers. Have you ever watched a cat play with a live mouse or a dog destroy (eventually) a rat ???

We may wipe ourselves out or the bugs may do it for us. It will be a race to follow with avid interest. I'm not sure if bugs understand the term "Phyrric Victory". Not sure if I can spell it.

LL. I do not think that the fox is an endangered species yet but you seem to have a problem with our current control measures so exactly how would you propose to keep it's numbers under control given that shooting is no more effective or less barbaric.

Fox hunting as it was served a purpose, OKAY. If we are now saying that we don't like the way it's being done then what alternatives do we have ???

You are quite correct we ARE overpopulating and there are groups dealing with this as we speak (Not really a laughing matter though) Ask any of those in Dahrfur, even in Eastern Europe (The ethnic cleansing in Coatia in the 80's 90's). Ask those in Zimbabwe.

A DIFFRENT DISCUSSION THERE !!!

Back to where we are. Eyestrange you are quite correct it is an emotive subject but a least it has got people communicating. Please note I don't think I have expressed a view on the morals of hunting and my views are not that important. But I like to think that I have made you guys think and DISCUSS your thoughts. There may never be a consensus but you can stimulate each other to take a slightly different view point by open and non critical discussion as you have here.

Keep it onthread and KEEP POSTING, there is still much to say.

GTB · Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject:

Local lass · Calnetalk Oracle Joined: 05 Jun 2007 Posts: 2845 Status:

LL. I do not think that the fox is an endangered species yet but you seem to have a problem with our current control measures so exactly how would you propose to keep it's numbers under control given that shooting is no more effective or less barbaric.

Fox hunting as it was served a purpose, OKAY. If we are now saying that we don't like the way it's being done then what alternatives do we have ???

note the word you have used not a endangered species YET.
i do not have a problem with people culling foxes by shooting them.
i feel that it should be more controlled than what it is.
at present anyone can kill a fox no matter what time of the year.

i have never agreed and never will the barbaric hunting foxes with dogs.
a bunch of pompus people on a horse trampling over the country side with a pack of dogs is just daft and unnessasary.

GTB · Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject:

eyestrange · Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject:

Chasing and kiling an animal by using other animals (horse/hound) for pleasure and entertainment is something I will never come to terms with. Its no different to Bear bating and Bull fights etc.

Not to kill them when they are feeding cubs, waiting till they are older and then chasing and killing them hardly seems right either.

To kill an animal because it may reduce a farmers profit is again coming back to Man believing he is more important than the rest of the animal kingdom.

When there was a large reduction in the fox population, the farmers rightly complained that the rabbits were destroying their crops.

Why not try leaving it up to mother nature...she as a way of sorting it out without the entertainment value.

oh and putting a flea collar on a fox is indeed stupid and dangerous.

just my views strongly held smiling

Attrebates · Aspiring Calnite Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 98 Status:

Attrebates stands back in amazement and delight at all the responses.

I agree with you Eyestrange about bullfighting. Now THAT IS barbaric and purely for blood lust & " entertainment" But it's very popular in Spain apparently. Bear baiting has been illegal in UK for many years as has cock fighting, and more recently hare coursing.

Nature (Or God if you happen to be of that persuasion) gave man the ability to reason and work out the ways to survive in the world. I take it no one has any problem with the positive ways that man has discovered, created or devised for the preservation of our species (& others). Drugs to treat diseases, ways of preventing & spreading disease.

Mankind alone has the ability to do this although most animals seek merely to survive and increase their numbers without artiifcal aids.

Eyestrange and LL have very strongly held beliefs that blood letting is wrong and I don't necessarily disagree but we still haven't come up with a viable alternative to shooting and hunting with or without hounds. We go back to shooting again. If all huntsmen had an aim like John Wayne at the the ABC Forum on a Saturday morning there would be no real problem with that. (Showing my age a bit there)

Unfortunately as GTB says no one can guarantee 100% of the time a direct kill. Is it any less cruel to wound an animal with any mechanical device and let it escape to die a slow lingering death ? The difference may be that you won't see it.

It isn't just man that is cruel. Nature itself is cruel. Refer back to my last utterances about cats and mice and dogs & rats. That has nothing to do with man's bloodlust. It is nature and we are after all just animals and at the risk of being provocative nature (or God) has made us more adaptable than most.

Man has been here for 40,00 years depending on your source material. Crocodiles and cockroaches for literally millions of years because they have foud a way to survive.

BUT beware the microbe !! At the moment we are generally winning that war but people are beginning to die from so called superbugs. MRSA C difficile etc.

Yes, fox, stag hunting may be cruel, some consider it unnecessary but I take a similar line to Rosco near the beginning of the thread 5% were strongly against for hunting with animals, 5% were strongly in favour and 90% weren't too bothered either way.

But hey! Haven't we had an amazing discussion, lots of thought going into making the points you wished to make and respect from every one for every one else. That is what fora should be about.
There is lots more to discuss on this and other topics. Keep it going.

You still havent said what you would wish to happen to those whose livelihood is dependant on fox or stag hunting with hounds.

Should they be cast into the fiery pit or rehabilitated into other forms of labour ??

Back to you

eyestrange · Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject:

now you see this is the first forum I have been on where strongly held views and beliefs have not been reduced to slanging matches and it is SOOOOOO refreshing to see folk hold reasonable argument without resorting to personal gibes......I LOVE IT Big Smile

I am sure there was livelihood dependent on bear bating in the past...didn't make it right tho........... :?
I don't believe in destroying packs of hounds because fox hunting is banned...that was just an emotive argument put by the Fox hunters to use emotional blackmail imho
Its up to those responsible for the packs to ensure happy retirement for what surely they see has faithful hounds who did indeed produce a job of work for the hunter through no fault of theirs ( the hounds that is :wink: )

Oh and about mans (includes women at this point too :wink: ) ability to create or devise cures etc to prolonge the species......to prevent the spread of disease....they have caused the most catrastrophic disease known in history....the Plague or Black Death. Yes it was the Black Rat that carried it...Yes it was the flea that passed it to the Rat that carried it and yes it was Human waste that the fleas picked up the desease that past it to the Black Rat that carried it.......cor this is deff a great debate Big Smile