Violence in the Holy Land

Geddi · Violence in the Holy Land

There is a cry for an immediate ceasefire from many quarters, but this is one we can all get involved with at the click of a mouse button. Apolitical and universal - check it out ..

http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_time_for_peace/?cl=161489541&v=2605

rosco

Is it not possible to have more than just two options on this poll (and in general on others)?

Things are often not so black and white that you can vote one way or another: for this particular one, I'd say that the international community should get (more) involved to some extent, but cannot treat it as a top priority over everything else (such as poverty, environmental concerns).

Geddi

Things, I agree, are not black and white here. It is, however, very very dark! When cities are built on the ruins of the homes of those who live as refugees, crammed inside an area blockaded, attacked and increasingly brutalised for decade after decade, and while ignoring international law and over 70 UN and UNSC resolutions, things are very dark indeed!

How could anyone resist continuing the fight against injustice of the invading forces who for 60 years have destroyed all the homeland and taken it as their own and claim it as their own in spite of those who suffer still from its loss? The resources of those dispossessed are scant. The resources of the oppressing, occupying local superpower are vast, supplied by the USA at about $3 billion per year with soft loans and military gifts as well. With the 2nd largest fleet of F16s on Earth and more nukes than the UK, Israel is a bully - just as the nazis were - who are demanding exceptional treatment and demand extra privileges, ignoring international laws and rulings with impunity.

I think that the rebels who lived in cellars and fought the nazis within Warsaw during WW2 were heroes. They were primarily jewish from the ghetto and I stand and salute them. I also salute those brave resisters of the Israeli brutal expansion who fight back with what scant resources they have.

Let us not forget that Hamas is a legitimate government in Palestine as a result of "free and fair elections" 2 years ago.. Since then, Israel, with the backing of the USA, the complicity of the EU and Europe and the onlooking of the rest of the world, has increased illegal settlements, attacks on Gaza, invasion of the Lebanon, blockading even humanitarian aid and the restriction of movement of Palestinians.

Let us not forget that Christians make up significant numbers of Palestinians, in case anyone is dreaming that Al Quaeda have anything to do with resistance here.

Let us also not forget that without the US veto, Israel may well by now be thrown out of the UN for serious, repeated breach of international law and the Geneva conventions as well as ignoring the ICJ ruling on the wall.

Recently, the 5th November was the day when Israel mounted a serious attack (more than the daily occurrences which tend to plague dwellers in the Gaza Strip) on the Gaza Strip. As a reaction, rockets have been fired into the surrounding towns (see above about the history of these towns) and the rest is what is reported on BBC News. Bias, half missing and as slanted as the tower of Pisa.

Block67

my apologies for this, but.....
(please read ALL of it, and not just what you want to read!)

Who are Hamas?

Hamas takes its name from the Arabic initials for the Islamic Resistance Movement.

Branded a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US and the EU, it is seen by its supporters as a legitimate fighting force defending Palestinians from a brutal military occupation.

It is the largest Palestinian militant Islamist organisation, formed in 1987 at the beginning of the first intifada, or Palestinian uprising against Israel's occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.

The group's short-term aim has been to drive Israeli forces from the occupied territories. To achieve this it has launched attacks on Israeli troops and settlers in the Palestinian territories and against civilians in Israel.

It also has a long-term aim of establishing an Islamic state on all of historic Palestine - most of which has been contained within Israel's borders since its creation in 1948.
For years the organisation was divided into two main spheres of operation:

social programmes like building schools, hospitals and religious institutions
militant operations carried out by Hamas' underground Iss al-Din Qassam Brigades.
But it became increasingly involved in Palestinian factional politics, both in the occupied territories and with a political branch in exile.

One of its leaders-in-exile, Khalid Meshaal, was the target of a bungled Israeli assassination attempt in Jordan in 1997.

King Hussein was outraged by Israel's action and was only placated when Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu released Hamas's jailed spiritual leader and founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

While King Hussein tolerated Hamas's presence, his successor King Abdullah II had the group's headquarters closed down and senior figures expelled to Qatar.

Hamas has remained outside the main Palestinian political structure of the PLO, but it took part in - and won - Palestinian Authority (PA) legislative elections in the occupied territories in 2006.

Veto power

Hamas came to prominence after the first intifada as the main Palestinian opponent of the Oslo accords - the US-sponsored peace process that oversaw the gradual and partial removal of Israel's occupation in return for Palestinian guarantees to protect Israeli security.

Despite numerous Israeli operations against it and clampdowns by Yasser Arafat's Palestinian National Authority, Hamas found it had an effective power of veto over the process by launching suicide attacks.

In February and March 1996, it carried out several suicide bus bombings, killing nearly 60 Israelis, in retaliation for the assassination in December 1995 of Hamas bomb maker Yahya Ayyash.
The bombings were widely blamed for turning Israelis off the peace process and bringing about the election of right-winger Mr Netanyahu who was a staunch opponent of the Oslo accords.

In the post-Oslo world, most particularly following the failure of US President Bill Clinton's Camp David summit in the summer of 2000 and the second intifada which followed shortly thereafter, Hamas gained power and influence as Israel steadily destroyed the infrastructure of the Palestinian Authority.

In towns and refugee camps besieged by the Israeli army, Hamas organised clinics and schools which served Palestinians who felt entirely let down by the corrupt and inefficient Palestinian Authority dominated by its secularist rival, Fatah.

The armed struggle

Many Palestinians cheered the wave of Hamas suicide attacks (and those of fellow militants Islamic Jihad and the secular al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade) in the first years of the intifada.

They saw "martyrdom" operations as the best way to avenge their own losses and counter Israel's unchecked settlement building in the West Bank.
After the death of Fatah leader Yasser Arafat in 2004, the Palestinian Authority was taken over by Mahmoud Abbas, a vocal opponent of attacks on Israel.

He viewed Hamas rocket fire, the militants' weapon of choice in recent years, as counterproductive, inflicting little damage on Israel but provoking a harsh response by the Israeli military.

When Hamas scored a landslide victory in the Palestinian Authority legislative elections in 2006, the stage was set for a bitter power struggle with Fatah.

Hamas resisted all efforts to get it to sign up to previous agreements with Israel, as well as to recognise Israel's legitimacy and to give up the armed struggle.

It has remained steadfast to its pledge never to sign up to a permanent ceasefire while Israel occupies Palestinian territory and its troops are responsible for the deaths of Palestinians.

It did, however, offer a 10-year truce in return for a complete Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in 1967: the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem.

But it has not relinquished its assertion that Palestinian refugees from 1948 should be allowed to return to homes in what has become Israel - a move that threatens Israel's very existence as a Jewish state.

Assassinations

Over the years Hamas has lost many members in Israeli assassinations and security sweeps.

The paraplegic and visually impaired Sheikh Yassin was killed in a missile attack on 22 March 2004.

Khaled Meshaal, now based in Syria, became the group's overall leader. Abdul Aziz al-Rantissi emerged as Hamas leader in Gaza before he too was assassinated six weeks later on 17 April.
Other prominent Hamas officials killed by the Israelis include Ismail Abu Shanab, in August 2003, and Izz al-Din Qassam Brigades leader Salah Shehada, in July 2002.

Shehada's successor, Muhammad Deif - whom Israel blames for the 1996 bombings - has escaped several attempts on his life.

More moderate political figures also emerged as significant players within the movement.

One of them was Ismail Haniya, a former aide to Sheikh Yassin, who was appointed to a "collective leadership" in the occupied territories along with the more hardline Mahmoud Zahhar and Said al-Siyam.

Facing the electorate

Hamas's decision to stand in PA legislative council elections in 2006 was a major departure for the movement and had a profound impact on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Top figures said the move reflected Hamas's importance in the Palestinian sphere and the need for it to address failing political structures beset by corruption, inefficiency and lost credibility.
It did not, they insisted, imply any acceptance of a two-state solution to the conflict, although Hamas opposition to the Oslo accords had kept it out of previous elections.

Aside from its much-vaunted incorruptibility, Hamas campaigned forcefully on its claim that Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in the summer of 2005 was a victory for its commitment to armed conflict with the Israelis.

But if Hamas leaders thought its parliamentary victory would bestow greater credibility on them in the eyes of the international community - or if they thought in any way that they would be given any more leeway - they were mistaken.

The new government was subjected to tough economic and diplomatic sanctions by Israel and its allies in the West.

Skirmishes in Gaza with the Fatah-dominated PA security forces escalated to all-out war, in which the well-armed and better-disciplined Qassam Brigades eventually ousted their rivals in May 2007.

Hamas security control made Gaza a more calm and orderly place than it had been for months. But Israel tightened its blockade on the Strip and - despite a multilateral ceasefire in June 2008 - rocket fire and Israeli raids continued to provide provocations for more violence by each side.

And on the diplomatic level, the Palestinians faced their biggest set-back for decades.

With Hamas in charge of Gaza and the pro-Fatah PA operating in the West Bank - and neither side engaging properly with the other - the aspiration of an independent Palestinian seemed further away than ever.

Thats the whole article!

Geddi

aha... the resigner returns and has learnt to copy and paste.

I read what you pasted and I know where you got it from.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1654510.stm

Hamas are many things:

1/ They are the legally elected government of an oppressed nation.
2/ They were created, as was the Lebanese resistance movement, Hezb'ollah, as a direct reaction to the illegal and brutal activities of an occupying, invading power... the world's 4th most powerful army in terms of technology.
3/ They are an organisation which manages to fund hospitals, clinics and schools from extremely scant funds.
4/ Victims of an illegally armed losing election losing opposition coup-de-tat attempt by Fatah (armed illegally across the border with 40 truck loads of arms and munitions)
5/ Victims of a reaction to a democratic election which beggars belief so close to EU land where 1.5 million people, half of whom are already internally displaced, long term refugees from violence and ethnic cleansing.
6/ Leaders of a bold resistance to a scary foe. A foe so scary that they have kidnapped over 11,000 citizens from neighbouring countries and hold them incommunicado for years and even decades.

I could go on, but of course the returning Block will simply demonstrate more anti Arabism sentiment by pasting more bias reports from the WWW.

The Red Cross/Red Crescent has severely criticised Israel for breaking international law (again*) and I hope the consequences finally reach proportions which reflect the crimes committed by Israel for the last 60+ years. It was, after all, the Pre-Israeli, pre-1948 Zionists, and those ever since, who are the real terrorists. It was the Stern Gang and such who invented the hijacking of aircraft for political ends. They started it and they continue now with excessively massively powerful weaponry.

Geddi

There is one small part of the BBC article which goes some way to make the current attacks on Gaza apparent for what it really is, instead of for what is claimed, ".. to stop rocket attacks.." and the words are: "Hamas security control made Gaza a more calm and orderly place than it had been for months. But Israel tightened its blockade on the Strip ..."

It's clear that by targeting Hamas, the small numbers of determined rebels who are firing rockets into Israeli towns (built upon the ashes and ruins of Palestinian homes once belonging to and housing the refugees who live now crammed into the Gaza Strip) are being freed from official Hamas policing action, which calmed the Strip for so long.

It was the Israelis who broke the ceasefire and refused (for decades now) to abide by the agreed ceasefire and by international law on 5th November 2008.

Geddi

Here's a splash from an Israeli newspaper Haaretz -

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052348.html

The suffering in the south renders everything kosher, as if the horrible suffering in Gaza pales in comparison. Everyone is hungry for revenge, and that hunger is excused by the need for "deterrence," after it was already proved that the killing and the destruction in Lebanon did not achieve it.

Nobody is coming to the rescue - of Gaza or even of the remnants of humanity and Israeli democracy. The statesmen, the jurists, the poets, the authors, academe, and the news media - pitch black over the abyss. When the time comes for reckoning, we will need to remember the damage this war did to Israel: The blood pipeline it laid has been completed.

GTB

To be honest here, I can see that both Geddi and Block are passionate about their beliefs around the middle eastern problem but to the vast majority of this country - me included - this is a conflict that is just going to drone on and on.

Thank you both though for posting the information.

Block67

-despite everything, geddi wants to make it a personal attack rather than constructive debate:

Block67

GTB - yes, it is a conflict that will continue way past our lifetimes.....

kathy27

Ged, could i ask why you always turn to personally attacking block when his opinion is different from yours?
This is not the first time it has happened.
EVERYONE is entitled to thier opinion, just because it is different from yours it does not mean it is wrong!

I dont understand alot of what is going on in the middle east, but i know george has friends out there (on both sides) and is always checking what is going on..
Maybe his opinion is different from yours as are some other peoples, but it seems a little funny that you only seem to want to pick an arguement with block!

Chepfer

Please keep the forums friendly and refrain from personal insults.

The topic will have many views and in respect to people commenting on here, please understand, expect and accept that others "will" have a different opinion to yourselves.

In view of Geddi and Block67, please refrain from any "personal" disrespect to each other. Please stick to the topic and not slate each others personal feelings.

I will make it clear that i have written this because we have been contacted by a member, who has left this site, because they felt that some of the topics went off at a tangent that they found, personally insulting and felt Scared to write a comments because of what others were writing about each other.

2nd warnings wont be given.

Be polite.

Chepfer

Back to topic .....

Who started the lebanese conflict this time ?.

Was it Hezzbollah or did the Israelites do the same with them !

redeye

When a conflict begins, how far do we look into the past?

The record is very clear from the UN list of resolutions in order of time-line. The record of violence is very clear.

In a conflict of any kind, if one party has lost something and the other continues to take more and shows no sign of ceasing and increases the taking, should the other side role over and simply allow the taking? Should the world stand by and allow it? In 1939 Britain had a choice when this was happening in Europe. Now we also have a choice when it is happening in the Holy Land.

There were some rockets fired from Lebanon into Israel, apparently, but the UN inspection teams there only found old cache from the invasion in 2006. Only 3 were fired and the Hezb deny firing them. Unlike the Hezb to deny any attacks. In 2006 they gave Israel a very bloody nose when the land invasion began.

It's an ugly war with its roots back to the start of the 1900s. Herzl and Churchill have a lot to answer for, as do we all now for allowing it to continue so long unresolved.

Block67

familiar overtones and sympathies???

with regards to this conflict, there is fault on BOTH sides, and it is a situation that will continue way past most our lifetimes.

If people continue living in the past, doesnt say much for the future.......

redeye

Wagging fingers does not change facts. Living in the present it what matters, and the present is pretty crap for those who are crammed into a tight squeeze.

“With the Israeli ban on international
journalists, the Gazan voice has been
further muted. Communicating the reality
on the ground with the external world
is essential to highlight the illegality of
Israel’s attacks. We recently started accompanying
ambulances to document
the attacks on medical personnel, which
is a violation of the Geneva Convention. I
have seen and felt the suffering of families
and cannot leave them, all the civilians
are vulnerable to Israel’s attacks. We
intend to stay and continue exposing the
nature of Israel’s attacks on the Gazan
people. ” - Jenny Linnel - International
Solidarity Movement.

I challenge you to have sympathy Block. Do you? Have you? Can you? Or is your bias outside of that sphere?

Block67

challenge? yeah right.

With regard to my sympathies, yes I do for the innocent caught up in this conflict, but not those that support or hide Hamas (which are recognised as a terorist organisation by Israel, USA, UK, and the EU).
It is a sad fact of any war/conflict that innocents get caught up in it.

As previously stated, did Hamas target the military with their rockets? NO.
Do Hamas employ tactics such as suicide bombers? YES
What will make Hamas stop? The anahilation of Israel.
What will make Israel stop? The assurance of no more rockets fired into their country.

Some of the palestinians want no part of this conflict, but there will always be extremists that do.