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Local lass

The union jack and the town hall

http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk...councillors_protest_over_flag.php

what do you make of this?
kathy27

i dont understand why it would cost £80. we have the union jack and george cross flying outside of our house all year round, it dont cost me a penny, so far the wind is free!!
admin

It's not called a Union Jack, that, apparently, is a naval term for the flag. It's real title is Union flag, which was created in 1707 by the amalgamation of England, Scotland and Wales.

Good topic though.
rosco

kathy27 wrote:
i dont understand why it would cost £80. we have the union jack and george cross flying outside of our house all year round, it dont cost me a penny, so far the wind is free!!


At a guess, maybe it is calculated as the maintenance costs (painting the pole, replacing the flag, having someone check on it occasionally etc.). I'd have thought that the St George cross would have been more appropriate, but in any case I can't see what the big deal about not having it is.
Clunk

And yet, Wales is not represented in the flag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag
rosco

Clunk wrote:
And yet, Wales is not represented in the flag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag


That's because Wales was never a Kingdom.
Bear

What has our country become when £80 is too much to pay to fly our flag. I suppose we should be thankful that the decision wasnt made on the grounds that we might have offended some racial minority in the town.
pimpdriver

Bear wrote:
I suppose we should be thankful that the decision wasnt made on the grounds that we might have offended some racial minority in the town.


Or the other favourite reason.......

HEALTH AND SAFETY!!!!
Clunk

pimpdriver wrote:
Bear wrote:
I suppose we should be thankful that the decision wasnt made on the grounds that we might have offended some racial minority in the town.
Or the other favourite reason.......
HEALTH AND SAFETY!!!!
If health and saftey was a reason, then I would put it up myself. I have a spare union flag somewhere. . . .  .
Local lass

it seems daft to say the least.
how can they say it would cost 80 pound to keep the flag up.surely it wiuld cost more for someone to keep putting it up.on special occassions.
Robert Baggs

I am not sure where the £80 comes from but considering what we pay in council tax it is a paltry amount.

I most certainly agree that this is a good idea but you have to ask about the timing of the actions by the UKIP councillors. John Ireland has been a councillor for several years so why not raise this issue before? Is it at all possible this is a cynical ploy to make this an issue now at a time there is a local by-election to fight, particularly when the by-election was caused by a UKIP resignation.

One of the 3 BNP members that John Ireland mentioned that he didn't talk to (I'm sure he did, as I was one of them!) in his comment on thisiswiltshire has been saying for years that the council should fly the flag. Every other country in the world has no problem in flying their own flag so why not us. I am sure the majority of Calne people feel this is not up for debate. This is Britain and the Union Flag should be flown. If we don't fly it, I am sure that soon we will be expected to fly the EU circle of stars rag, I'm sure that would be very popular!

Rob
Local lass

as of yet no one has come up with a good idea as to why the flag shouldnt be flown.
13 councillours voted against the flag being up why???
its bugger all to do with the cost its seems the counsillors are playing football politics.
Harris

Fly the Flag

Xpost from This is Wiltshire...

Quote:
An extract from the minutes of the Leighton-Linslade Town Council Planning and Environment Committee Meeting held on Wednesday 22 August 2007 at 1930 Hours

FLAG FLYING CONSULTATION

The Committee received a consultation from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport relating to the flying of the Union flag on Government buildings. Members noted that at present the Union flag should be flown on 18 fixed days – many relating to the Royal Family. It was agreed that in the interests of fairness and to celebrate pride in nationality the Union Flag should be flown at all times. Members requested that consideration be given to the erection of another flag pole (possibly illuminated) at The White House as they wished to continue flying the Town Council flag on the existing pole.

RECOMMENDED : that Council agree to the flying of the Union Flag at all times from The White House and that an illuminated flag pole be erected to effect this development.

Well done Leighton-Linslade Town Council who have made an entirely reasoned and patriotic judgement – in complete contrast to Calne Town Council who continue to refuse to give any valid explanation as to why they have taken their current and unpatriotic position over the flying of the Union Flag.

The Union flag should fly throughout the year from all civil buildings—town halls, council buildings, all Government Department buildings and from every school.  The Union Flag is a symbol of unity that cuts across divisions such as religion, ethnic background and class – the Union Flag represents all British people.

The Union Flag is a flag that the vast majority of British people are proud of, a flag under which many many people have proudly fought and too many have given their lives.

The fact that the Union flag now flies from a growing number of Government Department buildings is encouraging and entirely the right thing to do.  Calne Town Council should follow this growing movement and have an obligation to do so as a rapidly increasing number of people in Calne desire it.

There is nothing wrong with the Union flag; we should be extremely proud of it.  The people of Calne want to show their loyalty and patriotism and their support of our brave service personnel by flying the Union Flag from the Town Hall.  Calne Town Council’s vote against this move is flagrantly disloyal, unpatriotic and shows a complete lack of respect for our Armed Forces and the wishes of the people of Calne.  Their decision is – quite bluntly – baffling.
Local lass

couldnt agree more.
Bear

Spot on harris any ideas how we get the council to comply
Peter Dolman

flag flying

the council rules won't let them debate an issue for a least 6 months after a vote, unless 75% of the council agree to do so. with the vote against flying the flag permanently you will have to wait until May/June full council meeting to force the issue again. unless you can persuade 75% of 19 ie 15 councillors to think again.
Top Dog

What are the main objectives to flying the union jack all the time ?
Peter Dolman

if I remember correctly Top Dog it was that it would devalue the flag and that historically it has only been flown on special ocassions. the majority of councillors present (13 to 2) felt that it should remain that way.

the councillors who voted in favour were J Ireland & D Bland. you can obtain the names of the councillors who voted against by checking the minutes of the council meeting on the towns web site. there will be a list of all the councillors who attended the meeting and those who were absent.

a reported objection of cost (£80) was not discussed and was not the reason for the resolution failing.
i attended the council meeting as a member of the public.
Local lass

Re: flag flying

Peter Dolman wrote:
the council rules won't let them debate an issue for a least 6 months after a vote, unless 75% of the council agree to do so. with the vote against flying the flag permanently you will have to wait until May/June full council meeting to force the issue again. unless you can persuade 75% of 19 ie 15 councillors to think again.


considering the subject it seems to be 6 months is long winded.
i did read in the gazette that the council are spilt over this.
rosco

Top Dog wrote:
What are the main objectives to flying the union jack all the time ?


Objectives or objections?
Peter Dolman

flag flying

the council was not split on this subject 13 against and 2 for the resolution, seems to me to be decisive!

the 6 month rule I assume is to stop decisions being overturned every other meeting.

I would encourage more voters to attend the council meetings, most of which will be boring, to see how decisions are made and the listen to the debates. not all the debates unfortunately are very rational and personalities sometimes are bigger than the subject under discussion!

considering the current fad for voyeristic TV programmes (ie big brother and the like) I am surprised that a council has not been televised. Possible idea and if anyone wants to take up the idea my consulting fees are very reasonable.
Local lass

http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk...595.0.flag_bid_splits_council.php

hopefully it will get over turned and the flag will fly .
Top Dog

Most of calne want the flag to fly.

http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk...s_fight_to_fly_town_hall_flag.php
Peter Dolman

flag flying

thats not the impression I get from the people I talk to, most of them could not care less either way.
rosco

Re: flag flying

Peter Dolman wrote:
thats not the impression I get from the people I talk to, most of them could not care less either way.


That's probably true I think - most people that voice an opinion in a forum or at meetings are the tiny minority that actually have some strong feelings or beliefs on a certain issue. It's very rare that they are actually representative of the overwhelming (indifferent) majority.
Local lass

I would want the flag to fly . Roll eyes
Bear

Re: flag flying

rosco wrote:
Peter Dolman wrote:
thats not the impression I get from the people I talk to, most of them could not care less either way.


That's probably true I think - most people that voice an opinion in a forum or at meetings are the tiny minority that actually have some strong feelings or beliefs on a certain issue. It's very rare that they are actually representative of the overwhelming (indifferent) majority.


Therefore if a referendum of Calne residence was taken a small number would vote for the flag, the overwhelming majority would not vote at all and the Union Jack (I'm an old sailor) would fly this is democracy at work is it not?
Harris

Re: flag flying

Peter Dolman wrote:
thats not the impression I get from the people I talk to, most of them could not care less either way.


When you said that on another forum I pointed out then that if you take a look at the comments being left, its quite clear that more people want the flag to fly than those who don't.

This is a representative cross-section of the people of Calne.  If there was a vote the Union flag would fly from the Town Hall.
Harris

Bear wrote:
Spot on harris any ideas how we get the council to comply


If you would like to let the Town Council know of your support, why not email them at calne@calne.gov.uk with the following letter…

SPECIMEN LETTER TO CALNE TOWN COUNCIL

**********************

Dear Sir,

Re: Flying our Flag

As I am sure you are aware, the Prime Minister has officially directed that all Government buildings that have flag poles should fly the flag 365 days a year.

As a local resident I am disappointed to note that Calne Town Council does not fly the Union flag. Is there any reason for this and would the Council be prepared to reconsider its policy?

Many thanks in anticipation of an early response.

Yours Faithfully,

**********************

Failing that - fathers for justice style demonstation at the Town Hall?
Local lass

good idea Harris with the letter .how ever a fathers for justice protest is not a good idea. :lol:
Peter Dolman

flag flying

Dear Harris, the fact that a small vociferous minority makes a big noise does not justify changing years of history just so they will go away.
The question is why should any flag be flown on a permanent basis? What justification is there.

I am a supporter of this and other forums, I suppose as many have said, I have opinions which I am happy to express. The fact is though that again in reality there is only a small number of contributors who are as opinionated as I am.

Still its does pass the time and I am more than happy for others to have opinions different to me.

Have a nice day
Harris

The justification for flying the flag on a permanent basis and changing years of history is twofold:

1.  The Prime Minister has told us to – look here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/m...xml=/news/2007/07/06/nplot206.xml.

2.  The people of Calne want it.

The only small vociferous minority I see is the one I am responding to.
Harris

Local lass wrote:
good idea Harris with the letter .how ever a fathers for justice protest is not a good idea. :lol:


Oh well - I guess I'll just have to put the batman suit back in the wardrobe then  :wink:
Local lass

This is the reply when lyneham village admin did just that.

http://www.lynehamvillage.com/forum/default.asp

This is the standard reply you may receive (Its the one we received):

Thank you for your email regarding flying the Union Flag.

For information, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in their Green Paper (therefore it has not had Royal Assent and in statute) has suggested that a consultation is run on the freedom to fly the Union Flag on 'Government Buildings' (the Town Hall, Calne is not a Government Building). The results of that consultation are due very soon and I am sure, if members of Calne Town Council wish to debate the matter again it will be placed on a council agenda.

James Purnell, the Culture Secretary has directed that government buildings in England should have the freedom to fly the Union Flag when they want to and not as you suggest any government building with a flag pole should fly the flag 365 days a year.This arrangement will stay in place until a longer-term decision is taken following the consultation.

The reason for allowing freedom to fly the Union Flag was not solely to mark respect for serving and fallen servicemen and as Town Clerk I can assure you Calne Town Council have the greatest respect for those serving in our armed forces as you will witness if you attend the several Remembrance Services held in Calne.

It will be for the electors of Calne to lobby members of the Town Council to consider a change in policy.

Linda Roberts
Town Clerk
Local lass

is that a complete fob off or what?
Peter Dolman

flag flying

I don't consider it a "fob off" at all it clearly & distinctly gives us all the correct position of the government.

The town hall is clearly not a goverment building as it is owned by the town council and ultimately by the residents of Calne. If the majority of the residents want a flag (there is a seperate debate on which flag) then they should make themselfves known.
It is patently obvious to any impartial observer that there is currently no such majority, although this may not be the case in the future.
What will happen in the future, we will have to wait and see.
Bear

It is patently obvious to any impartial observer that there is currently no such majority, although this may not be the case in the future.

Peter on what evidence do you base this comment
Local lass

the town hall may not be a goverment building but i would say that it is the building of calne.
many people never heard of this story till it got into the papers but since then there are posters in shops,and a great deal of support for flying the flag.
Peter Dolman

flag flying

Bear like all the contributors to this forum we can only discuss in generalities and my perception from discussions I have with many people are that they are in general not interested in flying any flag.

Yes there is a vociferous minority (with 15,000 residents in Calne a 100 is a minority) who are making a lot of noises.

The turnout in the Lickhill bye election (27%) was poor if the voters really wanted to make a point they could have turned out in force and elected Ellie Bland, who is a big supporter of flying the flag. But they did not, in fact she was 3rd behind the Lib Dem & Conservative candidates.

I would ask those supporting the flag flying for evidence that there is a strong majority in favour as they state there is, i see no evidence that there is.
Local lass

there are quite a few shops down beach terrace with the posters in there window.

personaly for me i would like the flag to fly for the troops that die abroad ,and there family stay in the lansdowne.

i think more than anythink it shows respect.

the flag being up all the time i can see the councils veiw.to a degree.
Harris

I would like to invite everyone who supports the Fly the Flag campaign to make every effort to attend the next council meeting this Monday to show their support.

The details are:

Quote:
Meeting of the Town Council to be held in the LARGE HALL of the Town Hall, Calne on MONDAY 4 FEBRUARY 2008 at 6.30 pm, as there will be a presentation prior to the commencement of the meeting at 6.45 pm.

Doors will open at 6.15pm and Questions and Statements will be taken from members of the public for 15 minutes from 6.45pm, prior to the start of the meeting, in accordance with the Town Council’s Standing Order No 8.


Please pass this message on to as many other people in Calne as you can in order to get as large an attendance as possible to show support for the Fly the Flag campaign.
Peter Dolman

flag flying

Local Las if you are saying relatives of deceased airman/soldiers are staying in Calne awaiting the return of the deceased then I would agree. This should be an agreement between the council and authorities at the MOD. I am sure the council would have no problem agreeing to that.

Is that an acceptable compromise?
Harris

Peter Dolman wrote:
I don't consider it a "fob off" at all it clearly & distinctly gives us all the correct position of the government.


It is clearly a "fob off" as it does not answer the question.  It also does not give the correct position of the government – the Prime Minister has given us that (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/m...xml=/news/2007/07/06/nplot206.xml).

The first paragraph of the email sent to the Town Council simply indicated our country’s leader’s direction.  The second asked if there was any reason for the Town not flying the flag and if the Council would be prepared to reconsider its policy.

The reply from the Town Clerk spends its first paragraph talking about a consultation pertaining to government buildings and also states that Calne’s Town Hall is not a government building… this fact makes the discussion in this paragraph irrelevant.

The second paragraph tells us what James Purnell has said and goes on to state that he did not say any government building with a flag pole should fly the flag 365 days a year.  It states that this was suggested in the email - James Purnell was not even mentioned, the email stated that the Prime Minister had given this direction and he has!

Finally, we are told just how much respect Calne Town Council have for those serving in our Armed Forces as you will witness if you attend the several Remembrance Services held in Calne – but they won’t fly our country’s flag to show our respect and support, not even whilst the families of those that are killed stay in the hotel next door.

…and the question over whether there is any reason for the Town not flying the flag and if the Council would be prepared to reconsider its policy?...it remains unanswered.

The response is not just a “fob off” – it is utterly pointless.
Local lass

Re: flag flying

Peter Dolman wrote:
Local Las if you are saying relatives of deceased airman/soldiers are staying in Calne awaiting the return of the deceased then I would agree. This should be an agreement between the council and authorities at the MOD. I am sure the council would have no problem agreeing to that.

Is that an acceptable compromise?


yes i think it is Peter . Big Smile
Harris

Re: flag flying

Peter Dolman wrote:
This should be an agreement between the council and authorities at the MOD.


What should be an agreement?
Local lass

he proberly means a agreement for the mod to let the calne council know when there is family in calne of a dead service man.
kathy27

Why not fly the flags yourself, from your own houses and show the council up?
We fly both the st. George cross and the Union Jack 365 days a year from poles in our garden. you can get them on ebay for a couple of pounds each  :wink:
pimpdriver

kathy27 wrote:
Why not fly the flags yourself, from your own houses and show the council up?
We fly both the st. George cross and the Union Jack 365 days a year from poles in our garden. you can get them on ebay for a couple of pounds each  :wink:


Why don't you get a Wiltshire flag?

http://www.wiltshireflag.co.uk/shop.html

or car sticker etc........
Peter Dolman

flag flying

Harris I was suggesting that if relatives were staying in Calne then if the MOD requests that flags are flown in respect then I would hope that councillors would have no objections to the request.
It would be up to the MOD to make the move as I do not expect that the town council are informed who is and who is not staying in the town.

I suggest this as a compromise.
Peter Dolman

flag flying

I have just returned from the latest council meeting having attended to speak about the leisure centre in the public participation session.

I was expecting a large turnout to complain about the councils decision not to "fly the flag" but was not surprised to see just 3 others who wanted to comment on that decision. It does ask the question where are all these people who want the flag flown?

Its just another indication that this is a non story!
Harris

Re: flag flying

Peter Dolman wrote:
Harris I was suggesting that if relatives were staying in Calne then if the MOD requests that flags are flown in respect then I would hope that councillors would have no objections to the request.
It would be up to the MOD to make the move as I do not expect that the town council are informed who is and who is not staying in the town.

I suggest this as a compromise.


I really do appreciate this suggestion and I hope there is a compromise position that can be reached.  However, I work for the MOD and I am certain that they cannot and will not make a request of Calne to fly flags out of respect for repatriated soldiers.  It is up to Calne to choose whether it wants to do this or not.

There is no point in waiting for the MOD to make the move - they won't.  If the Council really DO want to show Calne's support then why don't they contact the MOD to find out who is staying in the town?
Harris

Re: flag flying

Peter Dolman wrote:
I was expecting a large turnout to complain about the councils decision not to "fly the flag" but was not surprised to see just 3 others who wanted to comment on that decision. It does ask the question where are all these people who want the flag flown?

Its just another indication that this is a non story!


Was there anybody there that wanted to comment that they didn't want the flag to be flown?
Peter Dolman

flag flying

Harris there were 3 gentlemen who stood and spoke against the councils decision. Considering the comments made over the last few weeks I would have expected mnay more as has happened before with other issues such as the cemetary, approx 30 to 40 residents turned out on that occassion.

I do not belive it is the councils responsibility to contact the"MOD" as I understand it the relatives book their accomodation independantly. It would be impossible for the council to know when relatives would be in town.

I would assume that there may be a welfare organisation some where in the process which advises relatives. It is this organisation through the offices of RAF Lyneham who could advise the town council and make the request to fly the flag on the appropriate day(s).

This as previously suggested would be a compromise acceptable to many.
pimpdriver

Re: flag flying

Harris wrote:
However, I work for the MOD........


Slightly off topic.....

Q: how many people work in the MoD?

A: about half.......
Local lass

I was going to attend the meeting last night.but was unwell.

with the media how it is it isnt that hard to tell when they might be at the lansdowne.
as i understand it people of wooten basset line the street when the dead are returned .how do these people know when and where to be.?
there must be a way of finding out .and even is the reletive arnt staying in the lansdowne it would be a good thing to fly the flag for those that have died.
Harris

Re: flag flying

Peter Dolman wrote:
Harris there were 3 gentlemen who stood and spoke against the councils decision. Considering the comments made over the last few weeks I would have expected mnay more as has happened before with other issues such as the cemetary, approx 30 to 40 residents turned out on that occassion.


My sources tell me that there were in fact 6 members of the public (including you) but that there was a prearrangement between you and the Mayor for you to take up time during the public session.  You were called (by the Mayor) to speak first and took over 6 minutes leaving enough time for only 3 of the others, the last of  whom was stopped by the Mayor because he had run out of time.

Now why would you and the Mayor want to do that?

Peter Dolman wrote:
I do not belive it is the councils responsibility to contact the"MOD" as I understand it the relatives book their accomodation independantly. It would be impossible for the council to know when relatives would be in town.


I didn’t say it was the council’s responsibility to contact the MOD.  I said that the MOD could not make a request of Calne to fly flags out of respect for repatriated soldiers and that if the Council really DO want to show Calne's support then why don't they contact the MOD to find out who is staying in the town?  (I thought the MOD booked the accomodation for the families).

Peter Dolman wrote:
I would assume that there may be a welfare organisation some where in the process which advises relatives. It is this organisation through the offices of RAF Lyneham who could advise the town council and make the request to fly the flag on the appropriate day(s) .


So the Town Council could be advised by an organisation you assume may exist somewhere in the process, in offices at RAF Lyneham..:-/

Peter Dolman wrote:
I This as previously suggested would be a compromise acceptable to many.


And the evidence you have to support this is…?
Peter Dolman

flag flying

there were 2 others who did not speak and left during the meeting when councillors Ireland and Bland left at approx 7:25pm.

I was asked to speak 1st because I had advised the council officers that I was going to attend the meeting to bring the councillors up to speed on the leisure centre , something I have been doing since the Autumn.

I had registered because I understood that there was to be a large number of people wanting to speak.

I did not have a stop watch but I am sure that I did not talk for 6 minutes.

Mr Davenport had a prepared speech of some 4 pages which went over time. The councils standing orders does state that the maximum length that a person can talk is 3 minutes, but the mayor allowed him some extra time as is often the case. He has spoken at many council meetings and will have known of the time restriction but as in the past he always over runs!

The 3 gentlemen in total spoke for some 15 minutes and they basically all said the same thing. The council standing orders does not allow this so the mayor again used his descretion.

I do not believe the way the councillors were lectured to will  bring them around to Mr Davenport's arguement. He in fact admitted that he had written to all 18 councillors and only 2 had replied to him. Why he thinks that they should reply escapes me, councillors give their time free. I know from my 4 years there are plenty of calls on your time.
I wonder why they had not thought it important enough to respond to him?

Because I have been told so by others.
Harris

Local lass wrote:
...and even is the reletive arnt staying in the lansdowne it would be a good thing to fly the flag for those that have died.


I couldn’t agree more.  Moreover, our troops are prepared to die to keep our country safe and risk their lives on a daily basis.  We should be signalling our support and there are people in Calne who would like to do this by the simple gesture of flying the flag that represents the freedom that their bravery and sacrifice allows us to enjoy – the Union flag.

I am sure the Town Council are grateful to our Armed Forces who being asked to risk their lives and die for us; unfortunately simply flying a flag to show them our support is a little to much to ask of the Town Council.  The Town Council should be ashamed of themselves.
Harris

Re: flag flying

Peter Dolman wrote:
I had registered because I understood that there was to be a large number of people wanting to speak.


That’s entirely my point – you contrived with the council to use up time to prevent those with views that you oppose having their say.

Peter Dolman wrote:
I did not have a stop watch but I am sure that I did not talk for 6 minutes.


More sure than the person who did time you?

Peter Dolman wrote:
Mr Davenport had a prepared speech of some 4 pages which went over time. The councils standing orders does state that the maximum length that a person can talk is 3 minutes,


So you knew about the time limit but, by not timing yourself, made no attempt to stay within it.

Peter Dolman wrote:
but the mayor allowed him some extra time as is often the case.


That’s just not true, the Mayor kept interrupting him until he had to stop.

Peter Dolman wrote:
He has spoken at many council meetings and will have known of the time restriction but as in the past he always over runs!


Did anyone remind him to keep within his allotted 3 minutes?

Peter Dolman wrote:
The 3 gentlemen in total spoke for some 15 minutes


So by now you had found your stopwatch

Peter Dolman wrote:
He in fact admitted that he had written to all 18 councillors and only 2 had replied to him. Why he thinks that they should reply escapes me, councillors give their time free. I know from my 4 years there are plenty of calls on your time.
I wonder why they had not thought it important enough to respond to him?


Our service men and women are being killed serving their country and Mr Devonport wants to fly a flag to show that Calne supports them and the things they are fighting for and you wonder why councillors had not thought it important enough to respond to him…
rosco

I don't know if it's just me, but I am surprised that flying the flag or not is seen as such a bit issue worthy of so much debate and comment.

I'd have though other issues are of more importance, such as (for the council) how they are managing the Phelps Parade improvements and (for the soldiers abroad) why there are reports of them getting shoddy equipment and housing for dependants.
Local lass

I'd have though other issues are of more importance, such as (for the council) how they are managing the Phelps Parade improvements and (for the soldiers abroad) why there are reports of them getting shoddy equipment and housing for dependants.


why not start up some threads on it :wink:

with regard to the flag i guess what it represents .like i said previusly for me it was more to do with showing respect to the soldiers.
Chepfer

I'd much rather see a flag displaying Calnes coat of arms, flying in stlye over the centre town.

Save the Union Jack for important duties, otherwise it loses it's importance.

It's not just a flag for everyday use, it has rich history and ceremony attached to it and that is how it should be used.... with reverence rather than any old place.
Harris

It is being flown every day in towns and from public buildings all over the UK and in none of those places has the Union flag lost its importance.  In fact it has gained back its importance with reports that flying the flag daily has prevented those at opposite extremes - racists who use the flag as a symbol of segregation - from using it to represent their own values and aims.

I feel that the reverence of the repatriation ceremonies are important enough for us to fly the Union flag and I wouldn’t describe the Town Hall as any old place.
Harris

The policy passed by members of the Staffordshire County Council was that:

This County Council will embrace the Government's lead in celebrating patriotism by flying the Union Flag permanently on all County Council controlled locations where flags are currently only flown for the traditional 18 specific days annually and will, through control or influence with partners, promote the display of our national flag on public buildings across Staffordshire.

Well done Staffordshire County Council!
Chepfer

Well there certainly are some strong feelings here about our national flag.

But for how much longer can it be our national flag , i do not know.

It would seem ever other country in our union, does not want to be part of it, they all seem to want there own independance from London (England).

Think of every other country in the United Kingdom, what flag do they fly...... Scotland has it's blue with a white cross, Wales has it's dragon on a green and white background, Northern Ireland has it's Red cross on a white background..... go to these places..... they fly there own flags not one of a United Kingdom.

Perhaps the flag of St George would be more appropriete ????

Perhaps we should start a topic on the relavance of the union flag being flown over the Lansdowne strand hotel and why no controvercy has been raised there.

And no the town hall isn't any old place, it is the place that represents calne in all it's glory.
Harris

Chepfer wrote:
..... they fly there own flags not one of a United Kingdom


This is quite simply not true

Chepfer wrote:
Perhaps the flag of St George would be more appropriete ????


Our Service men and women come from all over the United Kingdom.  We should be showing our support by flying the flag under which they proudly serve – the Union flag

Chepfer wrote:
Perhaps we should start a topic on the relavance of the union flag being flown over the Lansdowne strand hotel and why no controvercy has been raised there.


There is no controversy because any controversy could only come from people who did not want to fly the Union flag.

Chepfer wrote:
And no the town hall isn't any old place, it is the place that represents calne in all it's glory.


I absolutely agree…and the bare flag pole on it should be proudly flying the Union flag
Harris

Look here http://www.westerndailypress.co.u...Search&formname=sidebarsearch for an excellent article in the Western Daily Press on this debacle.

Also, you can go here www.westerndailypress.co.uk/vote to cast your vote.
Local lass

some good links there Harris Big Smile

i was talking to a councilour on sat .
one of the things he said to me was

what would they do to comemerate a offical date when the flag should fly with one already being up there?

i couldnt give him a answer.

another thing he said was

if the flag was to stay up each and every day should it be lowered each night and raised each morning?


i do belive the flag should be up at the town hall .but there has to be a comprimise .
Harris what would be yours, and how would you answer the questions i was asked?

p.s peter you should look at the poll in the paper 95 per cent  said yes.
people do feel quite strongly about this.
Clunk

Why the union flag?

Why not st George's cross?

Or is that considered racist nowadays?

I personally care little about a flag at the town hall. But I would be happier about st Georges cross flying there than a union flag.
Chepfer

"Do not take my comments personaly, this is a forum for discussion and i am trying to create it through open and varied dialogue  Cross ".

My own opinion is that yes the Union flag should be flying but also a flag representing Calne's own heritage should be flown.

I say the Calne coat of arms as itself shows respect to the crown and country through it's own heraldry, note the Crown at the top, symbolising the Queen and all she represents !!! ie britain and it's commonwealth.

This way it is showing respect to the countries of the united kingdom and also the people of Calne as well.

http://www.civicheraldry.com/page/13701
Harris

Hi Local Lass,

Local lass wrote:
what would they do to comemerate a offical date when the flag should fly with one already being up there?

We have been flying the flag on official days because we weren’t allowed to fly it at other times without permission.  There was a restriction prohibiting the flying of the Union flag other than on those 18 official days a year.  Gordon Brown has lifted this restriction and given direction that we should fly the flag daily as a patriotic gesture to help create a new sense of Britishness and to prevent political extremists using the Union flag as a symbol of discord rather than harmony.  We would be commemorating our Britishness, our patriotism and our pride in our country every single day and not just on the birthdays of members of the royal family, Commonwealth Day, Coronation Day, the Queen's wedding day, etc.  

Flying the flag daily would not in any way show that the significance behind these official days represented less to the people of Calne.  In addition, whilst these are important dates – for many the sombre occasions of the repatriation ceremonies are about as important as it gets.

One final thought… if we flew the flag every day and not just on 18 days of the year would the Royal family think we thought any the less of them?

Local lass wrote:
if the flag was to stay up each and every day should it be lowered each night and raised each morning?

I think the official line is that the flag should be flown from 8am until sunset unless it is illuminated at night, e.g. by a spotlight, in which case it can be allowed to fly constantly day and night.

Local lass wrote:
Harris what would be yours [compromise]

I just support the same principles as many people in Calne who want to follow the lead of our Prime Minister over this.

HTH smiling
Harris

Chepfer wrote:
"Do not take my comments personaly, this is a forum for discussion and i am trying to create it through open and varied dialogue  Cross ".

I didn’t in any way intend to cause offence and I apologise wholeheartedly if I did

Chepfer wrote:
My own opinion is that yes the Union flag should be flying but also a flag representing Calne's own heritage should be flown.

I couldn’t agree more

Unfortunately this Town Council won’t even let us fly one flag.  What chance have we got of flying two?
Peter Dolman

flag flying

Harris, were you at the council meeting and why not use your real name?

I do not know who timed me but I assure you that I did not go past my alloted time. I was also going to speak about items on the councils agenda but decided not to as I new others wanted to speak.

If anyone wants to speak at council meetings they can register with the council this will ensure that they do get to speak.

As I have previously stated I am not for or against flying the flag.
Harris

Peter you know me well enough.  You also know that the council only discovered the 3 minute ruling during a review of council standing orders later in the meeting.  You didn't stay within your alloted time and no-one was aware that you should have at that point in the meeting.

I haven’t seen a statement from you that you are neutral in this debate.  In fact some of your previous comments, in particular the following quote appeared to indicate that you were against flying the Union flag (although supported flying it for repatriations which you offered as a compromise).

Peter Dolman wrote:
Dear Harris, the fact that a small vociferous minority makes a big noise does not justify changing years of history just so they will go away.
The question is why should any flag be flown on a permanent basis? What justification is there.

I am a supporter of this and other forums, I suppose as many have said, I have opinions which I am happy to express. The fact is though that again in reality there is only a small number of contributors who are as opinionated as I am.

Still its does pass the time and I am more than happy for others to have opinions different to me.

Have a nice day


You have a nice day too :lol:
Local lass

One final thought… if we flew the flag every day and not just on 18 days of the year would the Royal family think we thought any the less of them?


dont think the royal family would even care :lol:
but saying that im not really a royalist
Bear

I have not been on the forum for a little while and was amazed that this thread is still going strong. It seems that whether we should have a Union Jack flying from the town hall is an immotive subject. From my own point of view I have to say that I believe that we as a nation are in danger of losing our national identity for many reason, far too many to go into here, and therefore anything which brings us a sense of unity I am in favour of. So I for one would like to fly the flag and to hell with those who disagree. Be British, Be Proud and Belong or get out !!!!
Harris

Local lass wrote:
dont think the royal family would even care :lol:
but saying that im not really a royalist

Exactly :wink:

Bear wrote:
I have not been on the forum for a little while and was amazed that this thread is still going strong. It seems that whether we should have a Union Jack flying from the town hall is an immotive subject. From my own point of view I have to say that I believe that we as a nation are in danger of losing our national identity for many reason, far too many to go into here, and therefore anything which brings us a sense of unity I am in favour of. So I for one would like to fly the flag and to hell with those who disagree. Be British, Be Proud and Belong or get out !!!!

Bear you are so right
Peter Dolman

flag flying

Unfortunately Harris you have the advantage over me for I do not know who you are. Why you feel the need to hide your identity I cannot imagine, but it is your perogative.

[b]The 3 minute rule is not recently introduced having been part of the councils standing orders when I was elected in May 2003. I suggest that you request a copy of the standing orders from the council offices then you can get your facts right. I was fully aware of the 3 minute rule as should have been all the councillors (apart from perhaps the newly elected member for Lickhill)[/b]


As I have explained if you want to speak at a council meeting you can register before hand. At the District Council meeting you can only speak if you have registered prior to the meeting commencing, perhaps the town council should introduce the same rule.

At no time have I expressed a bais either way in this debate, I am just defending individal councillors rights to vote as their concious dictates in any debate.
A right that we are enjoying in this forum.
Harris

Re: flag flying

Peter Dolman wrote:
At no time have I expressed a bais either way in this debate, I am just defending individal councillors rights to vote as their concious dictates in any debate.
A right that we are enjoying in this forum.


This is Wiltshire Fri 4 Jan 08, Peter Dolman wrote:
I attended the council meeting when this was debated and the council did not object on the grounds of cost and the figure of £80.00 I do not recall being mentioned. Councillor Ireland did not leave the meeting he just moved from the council seats to the public seating and then spent the rest of the evening in discussion with the 3 representatives of the BNP who were at the meeting.
This is not a case of cost or being patrionic it is just a case of what is sensible. We do not have a history of flying the flag apart from special occassions and this is how, in my opinion, it should remain.
Chepfer

I watched the rugby today between Wales and Scotland.

Neither team sang the national anthem and neither team displayed the union jack..............

Why is this ?
Harris

Chepfer wrote:
I watched the rugby today between Wales and Scotland.

Neither team sang the national anthem and neither team displayed the union jack..............

Why is this ?

Because they were playing rugby for their countries and not for the United Kingdom?
Harris

A Question (well 2 actually...)

There are many reasons being proffered as reasons to fly the Union flag daily from the Town Hall.  Some people concur with more than one of these reasons, some of which are:

• To show that we are proud of our country
• To show that we are united against Terrorism
• To prevent the Union flag becoming demeaned by association with extremist groups
• To use it to instil a sense of Britishness
• To show that we believe in the British values symbolised in the Union flag
• To show that we support our troops fighting overseas
• To show the families of repatriated personnel that we mind their loss

If you were asked for your view, would you support flying the Union flag every day?

Are there any reasons not listed above that influence your decision?
Top Dog

i have now changed it to a poll.
Harris

Thanks for creating the poll, but I was really hoping to capture the reasoning behind the opinion.  There is an increasing feeling that this particular issue is being used as a political football and that the people who don’t want the flag flown daily actually have no real reason – they just don’t like the person who first tabled it.

The trouble with a straight vote is that it doesn't give someone who holds a different view the opportunity to appreciate and understand another’s thoughts.  If you do vote in the poll please do take the time to give the reasons that underpin your vote.

(Mine was yes and my reasons are given above).

If we can begin to understand why there is a difference of opinion then perhaps there may be some way of resolving this issue.

Thanks,

Harris
Top Dog

Have done you a new poll.
Local lass

they just don’t like the person who first tabled it


Oddly anough Harris thats what i heard to because i argued with the person that the surley personal feelings must be set aside and they should do what is right for calne. Roll eyes
rosco

Harris wrote:
Thanks for creating the poll, but I was really hoping to capture the reasoning behind the opinion.  There is an increasing feeling that this particular issue is being used as a political football and that the people who don’t want the flag flown daily actually have no real reason – they just don’t like the person who first tabled it.

The trouble with a straight vote is that it doesn't give someone who holds a different view the opportunity to appreciate and understand another’s thoughts.  If you do vote in the poll please do take the time to give the reasons that underpin your vote.



Harris


Well, if you want to know I voted for the 'only on special occasions': one thing I've always admired about the UK is that it doesn't feel the need to bandy about a bit of cloth to have a sense of national identity Flying it every day would trivialise it and would actually achieve very little. I always remember visiting Northern Ireland years ago and seeing the British flags flying in loyalist areas (even say one on a telegraph pole) and I don't want us to have that sort of mentality here, no way.
Harris

Rosco thank you - I appreciate and respect your views.

Local Lass - The fact that you have heard this too is unfortunately unlikely to be a coincidence.  If true then I really hope that those who make important decisions for our town can learn to see past interpersonal squabbles and - as you so rightly say - surely personal feelings must be set aside and they should do what is right for Calne.
Harris

Check the Town Hall flag pole

If you take a look at the Town Hall, you will see something different from today.

The Union Flag is now being flown proudly from its flagpole.    

Very well done to all those who pursued this and well done to the Town Council for finally voting the way that the majority of Calne wanted them to.

Big Smile  Big Smile  Big Smile
Harris

The Union Flag has now been taken down from the Town Hall – there is an article in the Gazette and Herald.  The Flag was put up on Tuesday following a vote by the Town Councillors and 5 members of the public who had chosen to attend.  Around 4 or 5 councillors voted against flying the flag, all the rest voted in favour.  The article in the paper reports that the Town Clerk – Linda Roberts – has said that the vote at the Parish AGM, although it does stand, has no sway over decisions already made by the council.  The Town Councillors voted last year 13-2 not to fly the flag.

So let me get this straight – the Town Councillors have clearly voted in favour of flying the flag, but because their vote was cast in a Parish AGM it cannot change the decision of their previous vote – albeit the majority have, over the course of the last few months, clearly reviewed their position and decided in favour of the flag being flown.  What a ridiculous position for the Town Clerk to take!

Almost 100% of people in Calne who have been asked for an opinion (some 233 so far) have said that they want to fly the flag and show support for our Armed Forces and respect for those who lose their lives.

Tomorrow the bodies of the 2 airmen killed in Afganistan last Saturday will be repatriated into RAF Lyneham and it is likely that their families and loved one’s will be arriving in Calne today to stay overnight.

To take the flag down on the basis of a supposed technicality on the eve of this repatriation is not just insensitive – it is downright insulting.
Chepfer

I agree and if what you say is true, then as it is such a "special occasion" ...... The flag should be flown and the lives of these incredable people should be honoured accordingly !

Perhaps even ceremonally flown at half mast perhaps !
Top Dog

Harris wrote:
The Union Flag has now been taken down from the Town Hall – there is an article in the Gazette and Herald.  The Flag was put up on Tuesday following a vote by the Town Councillors and 5 members of the public who had chosen to attend.  Around 4 or 5 councillors voted against flying the flag, all the rest voted in favour.  The article in the paper reports that the Town Clerk – Linda Roberts – has said that the vote at the Parish AGM, although it does stand, has no sway over decisions already made by the council.  The Town Councillors voted last year 13-2 not to fly the flag.

So let me get this straight – the Town Councillors have clearly voted in favour of flying the flag, but because their vote was cast in a Parish AGM it cannot change the decision of their previous vote – albeit the majority have, over the course of the last few months, clearly reviewed their position and decided in favour of the flag being flown.  What a ridiculous position for the Town Clerk to take!

Almost 100% of people in Calne who have been asked for an opinion (some 233 so far) have said that they want to fly the flag and show support for our Armed Forces and respect for those who lose their lives.

Tomorrow the bodies of the 2 airmen killed in Afganistan last Saturday will be repatriated into RAF Lyneham and it is likely that their families and loved one’s will be arriving in Calne today to stay overnight.

To take the flag down on the basis of a supposed technicality on the eve of this repatriation is not just insensitive – it is downright insulting.



This is the article
http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk....outcry_as_flag_is_taken_down.php
Local lass

Its disgusting them taking the flag down .
they found 232 people who supported flying the flag .
i could find double that who wants to fly it and if i must i will.
when are the councilours going to listen to the maroraty of the people of calne?
Bear

when are the councilours going to listen to the maroraty of the people of calne?

That would be a first
rosco

I don't quite understand how the flag got up in the first place though: if the Town Council said no, that is what counts - the fact that a Parish council (a smaller organisaiton that doens't represent all of Calne) said yes cannot over-rule that decision, am I right?
Harris

The vote was taken by the full Town Council present – the full Town Council voted by a majority to fly the flag.  The issue the Town Clerk is making is that they voted during the Parish AGM and not a bit later during the following Town Council meeting.  When the vote was cast, everyone present – Councillors and public – understood that they had just witnessed a majority vote in favour of flying the flag and nothing was mentioned to indicate that this was not the case.

The flag went up for a day and a half and then the Town Clerk seems to have re-interpreted the rules saying now that a vote taken by the full Town Council during a Parish AGM does not count.  So she took the flag down again.

(Gets a bit baffling here…) Then she put it up again today although no-one had to vote for this (notice any lack of consistency?) presumably out of respect for the 2 airmen repatriated today (this hasn’t happened before and no-one is advertising that this is the reason – if it is then it deserves credit) then it was down again by 4:50pm (which breaks the rules for flying flags).

So you can’t fly the flag because the Council voted against it, then you can because the Council voted for it, then you can’t because the vote doesn’t count, then you can because who needs a vote, then we’ll invent a new time for lowering the flag…this sad comedy of errors is sure to continue.

Rosco – you started your post with “I don’t quite understand”.  Has this helped?
rosco

Harris wrote:


Rosco – you started your post with “I don’t quite understand”.  Has this helped?


A bit!  smiling
Local lass

Harris wrote:
The vote was taken by the full Town Council present – the full Town Council voted by a majority to fly the flag.  The issue the Town Clerk is making is that they voted during the Parish AGM and not a bit later during the following Town Council meeting.  When the vote was cast, everyone present – Councillors and public – understood that they had just witnessed a majority vote in favour of flying the flag and nothing was mentioned to indicate that this was not the case.

The flag went up for a day and a half and then the Town Clerk seems to have re-interpreted the rules saying now that a vote taken by the full Town Council during a Parish AGM does not count.  So she took the flag down again.

(Gets a bit baffling here…) Then she put it up again today although no-one had to vote for this (notice any lack of consistency?) presumably out of respect for the 2 airmen repatriated today (this hasn’t happened before and no-one is advertising that this is the reason – if it is then it deserves credit) then it was down again by 4:50pm (which breaks the rules for flying flags).

So you can’t fly the flag because the Council voted against it, then you can because the Council voted for it, then you can’t because the vote doesn’t count, then you can because who needs a vote, then we’ll invent a new time for lowering the flag…this sad comedy of errors is sure to continue.

Rosco – you started your post with “I don’t quite understand”.  Has this helped?



this is the problems with councils.to many rules .at the end of the day its a flag what is very easlity put up or taking down and yet the councill is so bloody long winded with it.
Bear

this is the problems with councils.to many rules .at the end of the day its a flag what is very easlity put up or taking down and yet the councill is so bloody long winded with it.



Couldnt agree more Basil Fawlty couldnt have made me laugh anymore than the crazed politicians and officials of Calne
Peter Dolman

The annual parish meeting is an opportunity for residents of Calne to have their say. I attended the meeting as a resident.
Also present as a resident was Ellie Bland who was a town councillor at the same time I was.

The rules relating to Parish meetings are quite clear, residents can propose a resolution and that can be voted on but the decision  is not binding on the council.

The decision was not unanimous as I voted against it.

The resolution could not have been discussed in the full council meeting following the Parish meeting as it was not on the agenda.

Yes there are many rules and regulations governing coucillors and their meetings, some are a pain but they are all there to safeguard the general public ie you & I.

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