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Peter Dolman

Israel, stop being a bully!

While I accept that the Palestinions are not with out blame, I believe that the Israelies have the moral responsibility as the regional "superpower" to act with restraint.

The bombing over the last couple of days, with more than 200, dead by the Israelies in nothing but bullying. If they really desire to have peace then they have to take the lead. Murdering innocent civillians will only motivate more people to strap bombs to themself to martyr themself and kill innocent Israelies, and so the merry go round continues!

There are people who will say that this conflict goes back many generations and that maybe so but if there is to be a settlement then someone needs to take the lead.
If Israel want the rest of the world to support it it is incumbent on them to show the way. Its no good claiming the moral high ground they have to prove to everyone that they have earnt it!
In my mind they have fallen well short of that aspiration!
rosco

I agree with you, unfortunately the Israeli method of 'hit with a bigger stick' doesn't seem to work but just creates more hatred in a vicious circle. The Irish Peace agreement would never have worked if the British had not de-escalated their responses, for example.

Pretty pathetic response from the Bush administration too (as ever): one has to hope that Obamha will be more even-handed in his dealings in the Middle-East.
Geddi

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance.  It is the illusion of knowledge."  Stephen Hawkins.

The myth that the animosity goes back for eons into the murky past is convenient for Israel and the USA but we here in the UK have no need to be caught in such a lie.  People alive today remember when Arab Muslims and Christians mixed equally with Jews, lending money from one another, babysitting one another's children, walking to pray together at the mosque/synagogue/temple/church.  It's only since the creation of the Zionist state of Israel that problems have occurred to such an extent.

On the 5 November 2008 (a notable date) Israel attacked Gaza so the Khaseem rocket attacks began again, as was expected to occur.  Most of these are home-made crude devices and are all the Gazans have to hit back at the illegal occupiers of their own lands.

To find a comparison of anything like what has happened in the Holy in history is almost impossible, but the behaviour and rhetoric of Israel is common for any invading occupier of land.  The UN and the UNSC declare the occupation illegal and yet the UK, US, EU and the world at large not only ignore Israel's continuing brutality, but they invite Israel closer to the heart of our seats of power.

Rosco is correct that Israel is a regional superpower, but I would go further and say that Israel is more of a military superpower than the UK!  They certainly have more nuclear weapons than the UK and a far larger trained army to call upon.

The main target of recent days has been the police head quarters of Gaza!  This is ridiculous if the Israelis are serious about stopping the rocket attacks as it is the Gaza police whose job it is to do so.

I am physically sick of the UK's selective blindness with regards Israel's crimes and there needs to be some drastic action soon to cease what is happening if anyone in power here or in the US is serious about world peace.

When the Gazans are armed with F16 jets and Apache helicopters, then they will stop firing home made rockets over the apartheid fence and strapping explosives on their bodies.

Watch the film - Occupation 101.   It is made primarily by Jews from US, Israel and England and is freely available online.  It is moving, informative and essential viewing for anyone who wishes to comment on what is going on...
http://video.google.co.uk/videose...l=en&emb=0&aq=-1&oq=#

For those who support Israel's brutal action with regard to retaliation for what has happened with the random rocket attacks on two Israeli towns of Sderot and Armageddon (also known today as Ashkelon), bear in mind that these towns should not be Israeli and the fact that they remain so shows the worlds lenience towards Israel's illegal occupation of Palestinian lands, despite so many US and UNSC resolutions declaring the occupation illegal.
GTB

rosco wrote:
The Irish Peace agreement would never have worked if the British had not de-escalated their responses, for example.


A good point, Rosco. With the art of Diplomacy both sides have to remove their fingers from the triggers to talk properly and even though the IRA was effectively beaten the peace process would not have survived without such measures as was deployed - releasing prisoners, gun amnesties, etc. Perhaps the Israelis and Gazans will one day have to make the same act of diplomacy?

Whilst the Israelis are not wholly innocent then neither is the Gazans. How much more indiscriminate can you get when you specifically target market places and restaurants with suicide bombers knowing there to be families with children?
Peter Dolman

Interesting comments, I am a little surprised that there are not more.

I believe that there is fault on both sides, the Egyptions apparently complaining that Hamas would not let injured Palestinions into Egypt for treatment. For what reason only Hamas know!

Listening to the news I am hearing that Hamas are refusing to allow aid to cross the border from Egypt, there are apparently scores of lorries lined up waiting to deliver much needed items, why?

Geddi all the baggage and incrimination from the past has to be written off and a fresh start made. That is the only way  peace  can be obtained.

I do not support either side, like millions of ordinary people I cannot understand the inhumanity to man done in the name of relegion.
GTB

I think one of the reasons why not many people have commented on this topic is because it is a story which has been repeating itself over the last 40 years or so. They are both as bad as one another - one is a major power that will use modern warfare methods and the other will use guerilla tactics and suicide bombers to try to win a war no matter how futile.

I don't blame Israel for retaliating if the Palestinians are engaged in underhand tactics but how much of the truth are we hearing in the Western world? The U.S.A will be in Israel's corner spewing out propaganda against Hamas and the Middle East will have another side to the story and paint a picture of an oppressed community being victimised by an aggressive Israel. How many times over the last few decades have neutral countries asked for a cease fire and peace between the two countries only for an extremist faction to put a spanner in the works by blowing up a bus, assassinating a Prime Minister or kidnapping soldiers?? I just think that people are fed up to the back teeth of hearing about this conflict because it is just a news re-run of yesteryear.
Peter Dolman

I agree but should we just shrug our shoulders and ignore the situation completely, I personally don't think so!
I accept that its not an easy one to resolve but nor was Northern Ireland.
GTB

I don't think any nation can justify ignoring the conflict but it will take something special to stop the two parties from tearing a strip of each other every 18 months or so. One side is adamant that god is on their side and the other is tooled up with nuclear weapons - which one has the greatest threat??

Northern Ireland took a very brave political decision which has made peace possible, although there is still the odd minor skirmish between factions.
Block67

This conflict will continue for many years to come, as it has done for decades. What started it this time? - Hamas didn't want to renew the ceasefire and launched rockets into Israel, and still remain defiant. It is unfortunate that civillians get caught up in war, but with the likes of hamas, they do tend to hide amongst the population.
Disproportionate reaction, maybe, but I would like to think that if the uk came under attack by a terrorist organisation, that as a country, we would go all out to make them cease their activities.
rosco

Block67 wrote:

Disproportionate reaction, maybe, but I would like to think that if the uk came under attack by a terrorist organisation, that as a country, we would go all out to make them cease their activities.


Name me one example of where a terrorist organisation has been stopped by military action.

I don't think you will find a single example - it may temporarily cause a lull in their activity but that's the best that you can hope for, with a large price tag to pay for collateral civilian damage and significant risk of escalation in the terrorist activity afterwards.
Block67

Quote:
Name me one example of where a terrorist organisation has been stopped by military action.


Not a single one, hence they are terrorists. Unfortunately it only takes one small minded fanatic to restart a war.
Put my previous post in a different context, Israel is seeking to put a stop to the rocket attacks on their country, and if that means disrupting or destroying Hamas, then obviously as Hamas hide amongst the general populous then there will be civillian casualties and deaths.
The other problem is that neither country will back down, as it is in their view a sign of weakness or surrender.
As for Muslim extremism, it may have its followers, but I am not one of them.
As for Israel being deemed a bully, every country has a right to self defence regardless.
rosco

Block67 wrote:
Quote:
Name me one example of where a terrorist organisation has been stopped by military action.


Not a single one, hence they are terrorists. Unfortunately it only takes one small minded fanatic to restart a war.
Put my previous post in a different context, Israel is seeking to put a stop to the rocket attacks on their country, and if that means disrupting or destroying Hamas, then obviously as Hamas hide amongst the general populous then there will be civillian casualties and deaths.
The other problem is that neither country will back down, as it is in their view a sign of weakness or surrender.
As for Muslim extremism, it may have its followers, but I am not one of them.
As for Israel being deemed a bully, every country has a right to self defence regardless.


You seemed to have missed the point I was making. It's not two countries attacking each other, it is Israel (country) vs Hamas (terrorist). I do not see that it is acceptable to have civilian casualties and deaths in an anti-terrorist operation: is it fair or just that people that have nothing to do with the Hamas organisation be killed for something that they have not supported?
GTB

Hamas was elected democratically (at least it was done with their version of democracy) so the local people knew what sort of political set-up they were putting into office. I don't blame Israel for hitting back at Hamas and if the powers-that-be of Hamas want to put a human shield around their top dogs then that shows what sort of people they are. This conflict will probably cease in a few weeks leaving many dead innocents on both sides, with both claiming victory and both claiming to be the victims. There will be a period of calm and diplomatic talks until yet another extremist decides to become a martyr for the cause and kicks the whole situation into another edition of Ground Hog day.
Block67

Rosco:
Quote:
You seemed to have missed the point I was making. It's not two countries attacking each other, it is Israel (country) vs Hamas (terrorist). I do not see that it is acceptable to have civilian casualties and deaths in an anti-terrorist operation: is it fair or just that people that have nothing to do with the Hamas organisation be killed for something that they have not supported?

Perhaps not, but did Hamas attack military targets or civillian????

GTB - I couldn't of put it better myself.
rosco

Block67 wrote:
Rosco:
Quote:
You seemed to have missed the point I was making. It's not two countries attacking each other, it is Israel (country) vs Hamas (terrorist). I do not see that it is acceptable to have civilian casualties and deaths in an anti-terrorist operation: is it fair or just that people that have nothing to do with the Hamas organisation be killed for something that they have not supported?

Perhaps not, but did Hamas attack military targets or civillian????

GTB - I couldn't of put it better myself.


I guess it depends on whether you see Hamas as being the state in Gaza or just an organisation there - I see it as the latter and thus not a country as such.
I think the more important part of my previous quote is the bit I have placed in bold: a sovereign state should hold the moral high-ground and not descend to the level of terrorists in seeing civilian casualties as acceptable.
Peter Dolman

This is not a subject that everyone can agree on but in todays world it is one that does urgently needs to be resolved. There are obviously fault on both sides but I agree that Israel should be taking the lead.

Hamas did win a contested election but only control half of the Palistinion territory.

It appears now that that both sides are fighting for position ahead of the ceasefire which will hopefully come sooner rather than later.
For this to happen both sides do need to want it, but todays evidence tells us for their own reasons they don't!

There needs to be a lasting peace or we will be discussing this again in another couple of years.

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