Do you think that Calne council serve us well?

Top Dog · Do you think that Calne council serve us well?

what do you guys think?

rosco · Re: Do you think that Calne council serve us well?

Local lass · Re: Do you think that Calne council serve us well?

Attrebates

Do Calne Town Council serve us well ? I think generally the answer has to be "Yes".

They are between a rock and a hard place in many ways as they cannot please all the people all of the time. They do have some difficult decisions to make and, sometimes, to any one individual (or group of individuals) they appear to make the wrong decisions.

I think one would have to be an independent observer on the inside to really answer the question but looking about the town centre, it looks very attractive and might well encourage the visitor to stay a while and maybe take refreshment from Beach Parade or the Landsdowne Hotel.

For the residents, again its a pleasant area to sit in, but residents tend to have other things to do rather than sit and take tea.

Another difficulty with the question is do any of us know exactly which services are the responsibility of the town council and which of the County authority ? (Whatever they may be called these days).

Also bear in mind that councillors use their own time without financial reward. Providing that they are not actually causing positive harm to the town as a whole, and there is very little evidence that they are, then they have to be good value for money.

On the down side, being a small town they sometimes appear to let personal grievances and party politics guide their deliberations. Again one would need to be an independent observer on the inside to verify this.

As for how we decide which to elect .... ? Open ended question. They tend to be a party person first (Cons, Lab, Lib Dem, UKIP, Green, BNP & There may be other political parties) which gives an insight into their overall sense of direction.

Local government shouldn't be about party politics. It should be about providing services that the electorate need and if possible any extras that they would like .

From a personal perspective there are some excellent, dedicated councillors and some that do not hold the same outlook as myself. Does that make them bad ??? OF COURSE IT DOES!! :O

Peter Dolman

This question should be considered against the vitriolic attacks on the councillors over the last 12 months when debating the issue of "THE FLAG".

Attrebates is right, we elect councillors to make decisions. Most of them have no personal interests in the subjects debated and come to a decision based on the information they are given to the best of their abilities.
We should not moan if their decisions are not always the one we want.
There is no queue of potential candidates for the next election and two thirds of the voters cannot even be bothered to vote.

It would seem that the majority of voters could not care a fig what their council(s) do!

Attrebates

Many years ago on a management training course and we were looking at the causes of departmental low morale (of which apathy is but one symptom.)

The tutor advised us that if you have a bad workforce you need to look at the management of that department.

If you have an apathetic electorate maybe attention should be paid to the management of that electorate. This is not merely a local issue, it is a national one.

To me the major turn offs for taking an interest in council events are, as I said previously, personalities (egos) and party politics.

Party politics in many ways is akin to a religion that is the most important thing in the afflicted person life. Support your superiors, the theme, and it's other adherents or risk becoming a pariah. The rights and wrongs of any situation are lost in the pursuit of this "religious" goal or being seen to be "on message" even if you don't believe it. How much integrity does that reflect upon the acolytes ?

This is possibly one reason for the apathy about which you complain and why I say that these two factors should play no part in local government. I do not know how to remove or nullify the effects of these two issues but until the adherents can resolve it, lack of interest will continue unless councils decisions touch a nerve with those that might just have a care.

Allegedly sharp words are often the result of frustration when it is felt that common sense, widely held views are being ignored and people do actually give a fig what the councils do.

Peter Dolman

I cannot disagree with your basic arguement and in an ideal world party politics would not be a part of parish council elections.

Personal ego's must be a consideration as why else would anyone stand for election. An individuals personal beliefs and their life experiences will drive their voting patterns.

Only individuals who are willing to listen to the debates and arguements made by other councillors are worth anyones votes.

But how can you decide who they are unless they (the candidates) are given the opportunity to persuade individuals. Some candidates do go around canvassing but not many. They possibly fear the reaction they may receive.

There have been several candidates over the years standing as independants, very few are elected. 1 in question is Alan Hill, a current town councillor who stood as an independant, then as a Lib Dem candidate before being elected in 2007 while standing for the Conservative party, I wonder what he really believes in?

I know the process is not perfect but what would the alternative be?

I would like to see a system where we elect a mayor (as in Europe & USA) we would have someone who would be answerable to the electorate every 4 years!

Attrebates

Peter, I think you and sing from the same hymn book if not the same sheet on this one.

But, you say that persons individual beliefs and experiences that drive their voting patterns. Are they not there to represent the views of their electorate (if views have been expressed) regardless of their own thoughts ? Or am I being completely niaive on this?

I know not and would not wish to comment about individual councillors but I have to admire your stance (as an ex-councillor) of coming on this forum in your own name and answering (as far as I can tell anyway) honestly and to the best of your knowledge, experience and ability. Sorry, no wish to appear sycophantic

I understand that there may be confidentiality issues which would prevent councillors from following your example and providing HONEST answers on a forum such as this. Is it possible that such a forum maybe set up, operated and moderated by an independent body or even by the folks in Bank House ? (Not exactly independent but at least having a degree of "authority")

At least if they read it they would be aware of what the electorate (those that give a care) is thinking, maybe correct any misconceptions they wish. If they do not wish to respond to any given post, the electorate could draw their own conclusions.

Maybe this would lead to more open discussion and a greater involvement of people in the way that Calne is run.

Bit of an inherent distrust of most things American, but maybe the idea has legs and should be investigated. AND I certainly like the idea of having SOMEBODY who is accountable to the electorate. Believe the current council are with us unitil 2013. (barring unforseen bye elections)

Thank you again for your openness and honesty. Respect !

Peter Dolman

I think the diffilculty being a councillor is that you will never know what the voters really think. Human nature being what it is the "people" only complain they never praise.

The phrase "quiet majority" is often quoted but it does reflect reality. I believe the majority of residents don't wish the Union Flag flown 365 days each year but they have not expressed their opinion. While a small but vociferous minority have!

I agree with you it would be great if all councillors (town, district & county) would register on this site, in their own names, and contribute to debates.

It would allow ordinary voters the opportunity to understand their (the councillors) attitude on issues. It would also give voters more information allowing them to vote (or not) with more certainty at elections.

I think it was a great shame that the current council voted to stay in post for 6 years. It does restrict our fundimental rights to vote for a new council every 4 years, as has been our right for many years.

There are many councillors of all persuasions who are good councillors and have the good of the town at heart. Unfortunately there are to many who seem to be involved for personal reason, shame on them!

Attrebates

I hadn't mentioned any specific issues on this thread, but as you have I think you and I will have to agree to disagree.

But I would say this, if the councillors (or ex/would be councillors) do not know what people are thinking because they (the electorate) never say, I do not think you can you justify your following statement that the silent majority of people in Calne do not wish to fly the flag.

Respectfully suggest you read through the entries on this forum and look at the poll. It may not be scientific but as a straw poll I believe it tells a different story. There are not many replies saying "Do Not Fly the Flag". My own anecdotal experience is that people do not understand why the council have decided not to fly but that is not very scientific evidence. Speak to Mr Mayo who with other people collected petition signatures, read the wording, check the signatories.

It seems to me, that a simple request for a straightforward demonstration of loyalty to Queen and Country (as many, many other towns in Wiltshire do) has become mired in petty squabbling.

As stated previously councillors should represent the view of the electorate where it is known.

Whilst many people may not agree I would venture to suggest that some of the people who do give a care about anything do so through this very forum. It's the only accessible platform for many, as they may feel uncomfortable with writing formally to their local councillor. It is always possible that they feel that their local councillors are unapproachable.

Maybe more councillors should read this to find out what ORDINARY folks think. If it is a vocal minority that are causing a problem for the democratic process, then I'm sure they have a right to be given a credible reason for refusal. Authority figures might stop to consider why the "minority" are so passionate about this ONE cause. In the Grand Scheme of things it wasn't a major request so why does it arouse such passion ? (Rhetorical).

This thread is not and never was about a specific issues so if we can get back on thread, I still think we, generally get good value from our council. I agree there a large number of councillors giving of their very best for the community they serve.

Peter Dolman

I was trying to use the flag issue as an example of how diffilcult it is try to establish the majority point of view.

With a population of circa 26,000 a group of 500 is still a minority.

As a councillor you often are given advise and opinions from people of all persuasions. Many residents do not have the opportunity or have the courage to express unpopular opinions

I am prepared to promote opinions which may not be popular but they still represent a significant number of residents.

This is a right that thankfully is embedded in our system!

The question is does our council provide a good service? In general yes but there is far to many debates held in confidence where the press and public are excluded.

I would like to see far more residents attending council meetings. Some of the subjects are frankly boring but attendance by the public would keep the councillors on there best behavior.

Attrebates

Sorry Peter your argument does not hold. If people do not express an opinion how do you know what the silent majority would want you to vote for and how would you know that they ARE the silent majority or even a sizeable minority? If you don't know then you use your experience, knowledge etc BUT I think you sometimes have to be prepared to reconsider on relatively minor matters such as the one you quote when there are valid points to the opposite view and not too much public support for the decision.

We are in agreement that the town council generally does a good job but they do not always get it right. People should speak out against decisions with which they disagree and as I said previously councillors need to be accountable for the decisions that they do make.

Confidentiality (even utmost secrecy) is a necessity in some cases and I do not have a problem with this but I agree that more open government AT ALL LEVELS is a must if the public faith and respect for the leadership is to be restored.

Bear

I have read with some interest this thread and the debate therein and I would now like to make a point regarding the issue of "Silent Majority" and "Councllor Accountability". It seems to me that you can never take into account the views of the silent majority simply because they are silent and you would have to make an assessment of what there views are based on other criteria. It is up to the public to cease being the silent majority if they want their voice heard, this is something which, if it ever happens, will only take place following education of the masses (maybe never.I hear you say). Secondly all politicians whether at local level or in parliament are accountable every time an election comes around and again it is important that the vote which our forfathers fought to obtain is used and used wisely. Apathy is the greatest threat to democracy in my mind. In summation and in answer to the threads original question to we get good service from our councillors I believe we get what we deserve.

Local lass

one thing i have found is that the town council is crap at communication with the town people.
how well advertised was the first gypsie meeting?
although i would say that most of calne couldnt be bothered to do jack about it and that is one of the main problems with calne is unless it involves no effort people of calne can not be bothered.

Attrebates

Peter Dolman

It's nice to know that Attrebates and I was not involved in a private conversation.

The problem about being a councillor is that you are restricted by legal and historical constraints. You can try to push the boundaries but its not always possible to get away with it.

As a councillor you are approached by people all the time expressing their point of view on a myriad of topics. Despite the fact that I ceased to be a councillor in April 2007 many people appear not to be aware of the fact.

I am therefore still being criticised for not only decisions taken by the town council but the district council as well. My contributions to this and other sites are based not only on my opinions but of all those that take the time to contact me.

There are subjects which warrant a confidential debate. There are many which don't and I am sure are made confidential just to restrict debate!

Apathy seems to alive and well in Calne judging from the turnout in local elections. How can the "powers to be" persuade the voters to turn out and vote?

Attrebates

At the risk of being boring

rosco

Attrebates

Sorry to have to take issue with you there, Peter. To YOU the flag issue isn't worth getting excited about.

To me and many others it IS.

The town council and officers seem to get excited about it from the opposite point of view.

It is in the grand scheme of things it is a minor issue and it is the apparent political/personal original decision making that has turned it into something more than it should ever have been. Apathy would have allowed the decision to stand unopposed.

I didn't raise the flag issue on this thread and I have not allowed any of my comments on the basic thread about "How well we are served by the council" to be biassed by this one issue.

My respect for your courage for coming on here in your own name still stands but I find your posts are sometimes contradictory. And at the end of it all our views are not too dissimilar except on the one issue you seemed insistent on raising.

Local lass

Bear

Whilst on the face of it compulsory voting sounds a good idea but I would be a little concerned by people voting for ,say, the Monster Raving Loony party, as a protest vote, just because they are forced to vote rather than considering the issues being debated. I beleive that only when people have be educated in the importance of making a considered vote will we truly be able to say that political apathy no longer exists and that has to start at the top with politicians behaving in the way that they should be expected to.

Attrebates

Bear, as always, you post with points with which it is difficult to argue and I, for one, would probably not wish to. Very succinct. :)

Peter Dolman

My dear old Attrebates you appear to be in a bit of a fluster. If you re-read the entry from Rosco it was his comment "its not worth getting excited about".

Like you I do not wish to move away from the topic of this thread.

There is a inherent problem in the current council system inso far as there are 3 layers of councils. They are County, District & Parish (Town). The problem is that many voters do not differentiate between the 3.

The town or Parish councils which are nearer to the voters than the others unfortunately have the least powers and the least money to spend. Calne Town Councils budget is circa £800,000.

I am hopefull that the new area boards under Unitary status may give more power back to local people. Calne will have 4 members in the area board plus 2 from Calne Without (the figures may change).

The elections for the Area Board are scheduled for next May, hopefully candidates will declare themselves early to give time for voters to question them about policies.

Calne Town Council have "bid" for some of the District councils assets and powers which hopefully County will agree to. 1 of the assets the Town Council have asked for is the Leisure Centre, a request that Calne Leisure Centre Ltd would support.

Attrebates

Chepfer

I have read recently of a unitary authoity reverting back to a district council system. I think i was in middlesex or somewhere in that area ........ (i'll find it out)

I truely hope this has been looked into in depth ......... as i work alongside NWDC in some areas of my work i can only speak highly of many of the "local" people and departments !.

I am concerned that certain areas affected during the change over have not been thought about yet ......

Attrebates

Peter Dolman

for those of us old enough to remember, the "new fangled" district council was introduced by the then conservative goverment in 1974. Before then parish/town councils had more powers and responsibilities.
I would prefer to return to that position, not because the good old days were better, but because the power was closer to the voters.

I cannot accept that it makes sense to have 4 chief executives of district councils and 4 sets of council officers as it is currently. They may be worth their high salaries but we are paying for them!
Yes initially there is a cost of unitary status and the pay back is quite short but the benefit (if they get it right) is the ability of local people to determine what happens in their area!

Lets hope that more voters take interest in the elections next April. I expect sites like this to educate the voters in the issues and encourage them to get out and vote.

Attrebates

Bear

Peter Dolman

Bear, there wil be elections for the new Unitary Authority next April to replace the District Council.

Chepfer

Bring back power to the local town councils, that way (like germany) we'll be able to choose what we need here in our own town, as opposed to paying for benches or whatever they need in salisbury, as we will in the very near future !

Bear

Peter Dolman

Bear not sure on that point but there is a joint committee from the County Council and the soon to be defunct district councils. They are looking to ensure that the handover will be as smooth as possible.

They are looking for imput from voters and I suspect that there is a link on the North Wilts District Council web site.

The debate about which District council powers will pass to the County or Parish council. Also the assets of the District will have to go somewhere and Calne Town council have submitted a wish list of powers and assets.

It will be interesting to see/hear the outcome of that deliberation.

Attrebates

Interesting! ! A few weeks ago the poll at the head of this thread showed approximately 60% of voters thought that we did get good service from our councillors. What's changed ? B|

rosco

Attrebates

I appreciate that it only takes one person to "swing the vote " at the turn out number that we have. So either the council have lost another friend or could it be the beginning of the end of apathy rule. Eg armchair critic votes with his feet. Big Grin

Peter Dolman

It is recognised by councillors that the voters do not understand the difference between town/district/town or parish councillors let alone who is responsible for what. They (as I did) frequently discuss how the voters could be "educated" to tell the difference. There is unfortunately no answer.
With the introduction of the new unitary authority it will become clearer.

Calne Town Councillors, when I was a councillor, voted not to ourselves any pay.
A district councillor earns approx £4,500 per year to recognise the amount of time it takes to do the job.

The new area board members will be paid approx £9,500 per year. Their work load is likely to mean that you will need to have at least 2 free days a week to attend meetings and the like.

The date of the elections have yet to be set but they are likely to be someone between April to June 2009.

GTB

rosco

Do you think that Calne council serve us well?

Re: Do you think that Calne council serve us well?

Re: Do you think that Calne council serve us well?