Peter Dolman
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Calne Town PreceptFor all those who may be interested next Monday (24th November) the Town Council will be debating and voting on the precept for the financial year starting April 2009.
I have heard rumours that there is a big increase on the cards, bigger than the 32% in 2003.
How much do think is acceptable in todays economic climate?
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Peter Dolman
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UP DATE
I understand that the councils finance committee is meeting this evening (17th November) to discuss the proposed budget ahead of next Mondays full council meeting. The proposed budget calls for an increase of [b]85%[/b].
This means that an average band D house will pay an extra £70 per house, that is on top of any increase imposed by County, District councils and the Ambulance and Police Authorities.
An increase of 85% is not aceptable at any time but even more so after a year of over the top increases in transport, fuel cost, food costs. How can these councillors justify such an increase. I hope that they see some sense this evening!
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Geddi
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As I understand it, there is a fear of deflation more than inflation so any increase above base rate is way out of whack. It's another case of Calne Town grabbing, as discussed elsewhere, all it can. I guess the expense of holding meetings after meetings to talk about things which only a very minor number of people care about (flag flying or not, for example) will need to be met somehow!
I know I am probably wrong here but it feels very much like it sometimes.
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rosco
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| Geddi wrote: | As I understand it, there is a fear of deflation more than inflation so any increase above base rate is way out of whack. It's another case of Calne Town grabbing, as discussed elsewhere, all it can. I guess the expense of holding meetings after meetings to talk about things which only a very minor number of people care about (flag flying or not, for example) will need to be met somehow!
I know I am probably wrong here but it feels very much like it sometimes. |
Given that the councillors are volunteers, I don't imagine that the cost of meetings are very significant. Depends what they think they need the extra cash for really, and how the move to a unitary council will be affecting things (for example, some services could be being devolved to the Town Council level that need to be paid for) - I guess we won't know until the meeting tonight is concluded.
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Attrebates
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I understand that there are some costs attached to recent unfair dismissal proceedings. That will include the out of court settlement and the legal fees to get that far.
For a private company these costs would come from the directors of the company via company profits and the directors could be held personally responsible if there had been a court fine.
There will also be some legal, expenses and other costs attached to bullying allegations.
I suspect that the contigency fund has taken a bit of a hammering plus the recovery of any losses in the Icelandic banking upheavals (Although the latter was very unfortunate and forgiveable.)
Well someone has to pay for it and guess who I suspect the lucky ones will be.
Neither of these events have been very beneficial to Calne in terms of image and financially a distaster for a small town.
Too right an 85% increase in precept is unacceptable !
I suppose there will be an increase in legal costs to pursue those who have been made redundant and cannot afford to pay the increased taxes.
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Peter Dolman
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The precept in 2007/08 raised circa £780,000 so an increase of 85% is around an additional £600,000!
The town council had (at least it did not) no money invested in Icelandic Banks so there should be no costs there.
I am not sure what they are going to do with and extra £600,000 perhaps they are going to pay themselves a bonus.
It has to be remembered that we will not be able to kick these councillors out as they have asked for their term of office to be extended to 2013!
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Attrebates
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Steady on, Peter, have the rosy coloured lenses fallen out ?
Some costs could have been saved by consulting the legal profession on employment law before being taken to tribuneral
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Attrebates
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| rosco wrote: |
Depends what they think they need the extra cash for really, and how the move to a unitary council will be affecting things (for example, some services could be being devolved to the Town Council level that need to be paid for) - I guess we won't know until the meeting tonight is concluded. |
GOOD POINT! Can I then expect to see a corresponding 85+% decrease in the part of my council tax that I pay to other agencies ?
Unitary authorities are supposed to be a cost cutting measure so I expect to see an overall reduction in my Council tax.
Pigs fed & watered and ready for flight.
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Peter Dolman
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Rose coloured glasses have not been part of my life for many long years.
If you remember the current council tax included £50,000 for the Leisure centre and unless the council are going to repeat that (welcome as it would be) then our town precept should have gone done by that amount. The increase therefore will greater still!
During my time as chair of the council finance sub committee I had one piece of criteriawhich was applied to every request for funding. Was it desireable or essential. If it was essential then the money had to be found if it was desireable then you could put money aside for say 3 or 4 or 5 years until there was enough to do the job.
I don't now what is so urgent to have to spend such a large amount all in one hit! I suppose we will find out next Monday.
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Chepfer
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Anyone know how much has been pumped in the Beversbrook scheme by the town council ?
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Peter Dolman
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Beaversbrook has in general been funded by the Football Foundation to the tune of £1.2m and the town council borrowed a bit more (£200k?) after the failure to obtain any significant donations from the local public/businesses.
The proposed budget which I have just obtained a copy (you can request a copy of next Mondays agenda with the proposed budget) and that has the following expenditure for Beaversbrook:
Salaries £62,000
National Insurance £6,200
Pension contribution £11,300
Contract cleaning £9,000
Additional land £40,000
Equipment purchase £54,500
The above will be offset by income:
Football £2,000
Cricket £1,500
Football Foundation £9,900
Reading "between the lines" it appears that in addition to a Football Development Manager the councill will be employing 2 groundspersons in addition to purchasing more land and buying grass cutting equipment.
The precept the Town Council raised in 2006/07 was £631,000 and in 2007/08 £695,702. The agenda does not state how much it will be looking to raise in 2008/09 but from from above its going to be at least an extra £170,000.
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Peter Dolman
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It would seem that the precept for 2008/09 will be £1,067,043 up from £695,702 an increase of £371,341. This represents an increase of 53.376446%
Is this acceptable?
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Attrebates
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I'm sure your figures are accurate, Peter it still seems rather excessive given that the rate of inflation is < 5%. So how does CTC arrive at this figure ? What expenditure do they have that has not been caused by their own profligacy and ineptitude ?
Does Rosco have a point about increased responsibilities under Unitary re-organisation and will we get a reduction in other areas?
I am drawn to thoughts of dreamy eyed princesses in ivory towers awaiting the arrival of prince charming (ie council tax payers).
How does it think that people can afford to pay increases of this nature, particularly when all other major outgoings are increasing alarmingly and many are on fixed or severely reduced income ?
Please, please, please, tell me I'm wrong.
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Peter Dolman
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Unfortunately you are not wrong, oh how I wish you were.
The figures I have reproduced from the council agenda from next Mondays full council meeting.
The proposed budget does not in general include any effect from the demise of the District Council, apart from a £6,000 grant to support Bank House which will not be available from April.
The decision, as far as I am aware, as to what, if any, responsibilities the Town Council will take over from the District Council has yet to be made. Therefore there is no financial provision at this time.
The average band D cost was in the region of £140 (the Calne Town charge only) for 2007/08 which will increase by approx £80 to £220.
There will increases from the County, they did have money in Icelandic Banks, and the Ambulance/Police authorities.
I just hope that the majority of Town councillors see how unacceptable a 53% increase would be and vote against this budget.
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Peter Dolman
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Apoligies for an error
I have to ammend some of the figures I have previously quoted.
The 2008/09 precept was £800,000
The proposed 2009/10 precept is £1,067,043
This is a rise of £267,043 or 33.38%
If we add back the £50,000 for Calne Leisure Centre which is not being repeated then the increase is;
£317,043 or 39.63%
I apoligise for supplying incorrect information in my previous comment.
33.38% or 39.63% both are big numbers when compared to inflation at 4.5% and forecast to drop to 2% or lower.
I have emailed all the town councillors urging not to support this budget on the basis that the ordinary residents of the town are struggling enough with their finances as it is.
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Attrebates
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I appreciate your honesty and integrity on the revised figures but it does not alter the fact that this proposed increase is still six or seven times the maximum rate of inflation over the past 12 months.
This will take a lot of justification.
I would write to my councillor but having been roundly ignored (not even an acknowlegment) once, I wonder about the point of it if I am to receive a second snub. (I'm really quite a sensitive person. :'( )
BTW What happens if the CTC do not get their precept increase that they claim to need ? Cuts in services ? Review of administration & legal costs ? Abandonment of capital projects ?
2 out of three, I suppose is a distinct possibility. Hattrick, unlikely.
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Peter Dolman
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Well I have already received a reply from one councillor who confirmed that they will be voting against the budget.
I asked in my email that the vote is recorded, this will mean that the way each councillors vote will be minuted and can be seen by the electorate.
I also copied in the Wilts Gazette & Herald reporter which hopefully means that they will ensure it will be widely reported.
If the budget is rejected the councillors and officiers will need to sit down an think again. There is in my opinion several areas where savings could be made. That may mean some projects being shelved or mothballed.
The services the Town council offers will not suffer but some of the more grandiose schemes would be effected!
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Attrebates
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| Peter Dolman wrote: | | The proposed budget which I have just obtained a copy (you can request a copy of next Mondays agenda with the proposed budget) extract. |
Is this the one @ 10p/sheet with a large number of pages as quoted to one enquirer ?
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Peter Dolman
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You need to ask for a copy of the full agenda which is about 1" thick and the budget item contains about 40 pages. Surely they did not try to charge you for it? If they did thats' a step too far!
I have now received 3 replies to my email and all 3 have indicated that they will vote to reject the budget. I therefore only need 7 more, assuming that all the councillors turn up.
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GTB
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| Peter Dolman wrote: | | I have now received 3 replies to my email and all 3 have indicated that they will vote to reject the budget. I therefore only need 7 more, assuming that all the councillors turn up. |
You couldn't e-mail these people again, Peter and point them in the direction of this place? Reading this topic is very informative and I'm sure that the input from a few more people "in the know" would go a long way to explaining where money is spent. :thumbl:
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Peter Dolman
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I am afraid that the budget would be diffilcult to discuss on line unless you had the document to refer to and had some experience of the process. Thats not trying to put anyone down but it took me a couple of years to get to grips with it, its not like anything I had seen before.
There are many departments all with seperate budgets (allotments, cemetries etc, etc, etc).
I have a copy if you would like to "borrow" it for the weekend email me.
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Attrebates
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| Peter Dolman wrote: | | You need to ask for a copy of the full agenda which is about 1" thick and the budget item contains about 40 pages. Surely they did not try to charge you for it? If they did thats' a step too far! Extract |
Oh yes they did ! It was the young man in Bank House, but I'm sure he was only obeying orders.
BTW my forum grading is completely untrue. I AM A VISITOR WHO HAS LINGERED :thumbr:
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Chepfer
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I think the answer to "you'll have to pay for it " would be ...... I already am !
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Attrebates
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Clearly we aren't paying enough, Chepfer. old boy!!
Now what is your blood group ? :D
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rosco
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Re: Calne Town Precept | Peter Dolman wrote: | For all those who may be interested next Monday (24th November) the Town Council will be debating and voting on the precept for the financial year starting April 2009.
I have heard rumours that there is a big increase on the cards, bigger than the 32% in 2003.
How much do think is acceptable in todays economic climate? |
Just about to start I guess right now: be interested to hear how it turns out... :ummm?:
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Peter Dolman
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Well I have just returned from the council meeting at which was an emotive debate. The outcome was a vote in favour of the increased budget by 8 votes to 6 with 1 abstention.
The vote was recorded and the following councillors voted to support the increase;
Howard Marshall
Colin Viner
Charles Boase
Paul Venton
Heather Canfer
Carol Robinson
Roy Golding
Glenis Ansell
Those against
David Bland
John Ireland
Emily Pieroux
Helen Plenty
Caroline Ramsey
David Short
Councillor Alan Hill abstained
Councillors Amanda Venton and Tony Trotman were absent.
Town Mayor Mercy Baggs did not vote.
The cost to a band D house will rise by approx £50 per year and this is without any increase from the County Council, Police and ambulance authorities.
Anyone who thinks that the increase is unacceptable should email the councillors, addresses can be found on
www.calne.org.uk
Councillors John Ireland and David Bland resigned from the council as a sign of their disgust in the decision.
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rosco
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What was the justification for the increase? And what percentage is a £50 rise, is it that big?
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GTB
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Thankyou for posting that information, Peter.
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Peter Dolman
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The increase is33% or 40% dependant on what base line you use. The £50k given to the Leisure Centre last year was a one off and I deduct from last year precept to get my base line.
ie precept £800,000 less £50,000 equals £750,000.
Next years precept £1,067,043 minus £750,000 equals £317,043.
£317,043 as a percentage ofr £750,000 equals 39.83%.
Simple really!
Justification, well the councillors who support it feel that this is the level of funding needed. I argued on 3 budget items that the expediture was not essential (and there are many others I could have chosen) but unfortunately not enough agreed with me.
I am upset as one councillor who email me to say they would vote against it changed their mind at the last second. If they had not the budget would have been defeated. Shame on them.
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GTB
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With the onset of the global credit crunch would it not have been more politically correct to have shown a bit of prudence and tightened their belts a little? This is a fair old hike and one which will have a knock-on effect to everyone in Calne who pays their rates - and the few who benefit from the funding.
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Attrebates
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| GTB wrote: | | With the onset of the global credit crunch would it not have been more politically correct to have shown a bit of prudence and tightened their belts a little? This is a fair old hike and one which will have a knock-on effect to everyone in Calne who pays their rates - and the few who benefit from the funding. |
Not sure about 'politically correct', but COMMON SENSE is a phrase that springs to mind.
I expect next year's floral display will be even more wonderful than this year.
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AndyI
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My understanding is that the money is for Beversbrook.
I must admit to being biased up front as I am Cllr Irelands son. That said everything I have written here is the truth as I understand it.
The cost of taking Cllr Ireland to a tribunal for bullying is not cheap but it is not the reason or a reason for the precept increase. And while I disagree with many things he says or does, I have to say that this should have been settled between the two of them and cost the taxpayers nothing in any case.
Both Cllr Ireland and Bland have resigned over the matter and I think the RBL will be the better for it as they both can now concentrate on fund raising for the services. As Dolman stated, this increase comes atop of others in the past including the one we were supposed to be refunded for and never have been. At what point are the public going to stop supporting this shower and vote only new councillors in and get rid of the rot?
This council is made up of many of the same old faces with a few councillors pretty much running the show and the rest following like sheep. That they are now in power for a long time they seem to no longer care about the public given they think everyone will have forgotten or moved by the time the next election comes around and they may well be right. Thats if many of them ever cared more about anyone but themselves in the first place.
One councillor in particular was doing all of the running to get this increase through and whether he felt he needed to protect himself for the upcoming Unitary elections or not, decided then to abstein having persuaded many others to back it. Is it a consequence of Cllr Ireland asking for the vote to be recorded and named? In which case I would have to argue that, that behaviour is enough to tell everyone what that particular councillor cares about.
******
Dont read from here if you do not care about the bullying tribunal...
As to the issue over the Bullying allegation that everyone keeps raising, I thought I'd just put point out a few things.
Cllr Ireland was accused of bullying because of leaks of info to the papers (town clerk has since conceeded it was not him in the instance she cited) and choice of words (yes he said she'd have a virtual war on her hands). I see comments like that from politicians almost everyday in the papers. They are not personal. In fact the Town clerk also told one of the journalists from the Gazette that her paper was bullying her and the reporter in question was not welcome in the town.
Not only did she take Cllr Ireland to the standards committee but she held him responsible for members of the RBL that wrote or emailed her and she wrote to RBL London complaining about him. The nasty emails she received did not as she had stated originally, come from any RBL members.
She also took a grievance procedure through the council. Overkill? The Standards committee penalty was minor reflecting that they found in her favour only 'because of her feelings'. The grievance procedure could not be continued because it is against the rules for Cllr Ireland to disclose what was taking place because of confidentiality. So that in effect cost the taxpayers even more because it was a completely wasted and costly endevour. She should have known that as part of her job remit.
She put in a statement on the day, he was not allowed to call witnesses to disprove many of the things that she had stated and he was not allowed to have it heard in public which he asked for! Yeah that's what we call fair and just. You see he actually foolishly believes in openess and honesty even though the cynics like myself would say that's completely unachievable.
If she cant take a little bit of pressure then what on earth is she doing in this job and with a very nice salary? She has cost us the taxpayer a fair amount of money and it's not the first time either and probably will not be the last.
It is interesting that Cllr Ireland would have resigned before now had it not been for the allegation which he decided to fight even though both his hands were tied behind his back.
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Attrebates
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Andy, that took courage and much respect to you for it. You have said many things directly that your father could not. Hopefully many, within the town council and on the outside, will stop and think about what you have said. It will be interesting to see any responses.
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Peter Dolman
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The increase is partialy for the new sports complex but there are many other costs which are not essential for the council to provide the services required.
John Ireland and I do not often agree on many thing but we did on Monday evening. John is his own worst enemy and tends to alienate people to his personal disadvantage. If he was to learn a little humility he would have achieved so much more.
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Local lass
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John Ireland and I do not often agree on many thing but we did on Monday evening. John is his own worst enemy and tends to alienate people to his personal disadvantage. If he was to learn a little humility he would have achieved so much more.
so basically to get things done you have to kiss arse. B|
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Peter Dolman
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Not at all, I like John am not known for kissing a... , I am my own man but seem to do all right. I don't think I am quite as confrontational as John is, although its up to others to agree or disagree with that statement.
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Attrebates
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One difference (well until Monday night anyway), as you and others have reminded me, Peter, you are not a councillor. :roll:
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AndyI
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Well the resignations seem to have had an effect as there are calls for Calne Town Councils spending to now be investigated and Councillors are being asked to justify themselves. One Councillor has since told the public that they voted against the measure when in fact they voted for it.
Seems they are now caught in a set of headlights and are scrambling to get out but doing themeselves serious damage in trying to do so.
At least one other Councillor almost resigned and is still considering thier position.
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Peter Dolman
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Andy you and I will have to disagree, I would expect you to defend you father in all matters, I would expect my children to do the same for me, but John is not totally without blame.
I agree he is not one to toe the line and appears at times quite happy to be antagonistic as often as possible. He is always looking to have his own way and will resort to tactics which does not endear him to others and I am sure that makes people go against him because of them.
The opposite could be said if John had supported me on a couple of occassions there could have been a to different outcome several issues. We did together vote many times especially on planning issues.
I have not heard about any councillor claiming to have voted against it but their vote was recorded in favour. They were some very quiet responses when they were asked to cast their votes and as best as I could recorded the results which I postred on this site. While I apoligise if I am wrong but the result was declared as 8 in favour and 6 against with 1 abstention. Mercy Baggs (town mayor) I believed did not cast a vote. I would be interested to hear who the unhappy councillor is!
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rosco
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| Peter Dolman wrote: | | While I apoligise if I am wrong but the result was declared as 8 in favour and 6 against with 1 abstention. Mercy Baggs (town mayor) I believed did not cast a vote. I would be interested to hear who the unhappy councillor is! |
I guess the Mayor would not normally vote and only be relied on for a tie-breaker, presumably that's why Mercy didn't vote here? Probably the two missing councillors could have had a big impact, had they both voted against?
Althouh a large %age increase, as you say elsewhere it's not that big in absolute terms. Any idea how CTC's take compared to other areas in Wiltshire, i.e. are they costing more or less than other towns?
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AndyI
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Peter,
I think I said you were right to a certain extent actually and didn't blindly defend him as I know how difficult he can be but you make it sound like he is the only Councillor who is ever at fault and we both know that's not true. :D
Remember the increase is considerably larger than that for anyone above Band D!
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Peter Dolman
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Rosco I am not aware of any other town finalising their precept at this time. I have heard off the record of 1 town who are likely to keep their precept the same as the current year because of the current economic crisis, but as they have yet to vote it is not certain that will happen.
Its not unheard of the town Mayor voting at the end of a debate and not just if the vote is tied. The mayor can therefore actually have 2 votes.
I cannot say but Councillor Trotman is on the finance working party that put together the budget but so is Councillor Hill and he abstained. You would expect councillors involved in preparing the budget to support it or that budget surely would not have been presented to the full council!
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AndyI
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As I understand it Peter, Calne is one of the highest isnt it? I'm pretty sure it was way up there the last I saw the list for all of the towns.
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Peter Dolman
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Andy I am fully aware of the impact that such an increase will have. Having spent 4 years working on the town's budget trying to restrict any expediture to a minimum. It is diffilcult because there are many worth while groups within the town that have projects worthy of support. I know that councillors are keen to support them as I and others before were.
I accept that not all councillors are as honest and open as they should be but I would draw the line from saying that any are dishonest.
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AndyI
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| Quote: | | but I would draw the line from saying that any are dishonest |
You are right, I didn't mean to imply that either, I have removed those comments.
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Peter Dolman
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Andy the highest are the big towns such as Chippenham, Malmesbury, Wootton Bassett and Calne.
The smaller rural areas do not provide any services, they do not have allotments, may not have any burial grounds, not shopping centres to install CCTV, have very little anti social behaviour (they all come into town) etc etc.
Calne Without band D precept is approx £10 against Calne's proposed £195.
But you cannot compare Apples with Damsons!
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AndyI
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I realise that.
Isn't 'Calne Without' coming into Calne? wrt 'Calne Without', it is crazy that you have identical houses next to each other and the tax is so substantially different yet really they still get the exact same services. So they are not really Apples and Damsons though!
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Peter Dolman
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you are refering to 331 houses situated inside the bye pass but not in Calne. They should be some time maybe next year maybe never. John was reported in the Gazette (picture and all) supporting some residents who were trying to fight against becoming part of the town.
At todays precept (£145) rthey are "worth" approx £50,000 or about one fifth of the increase.
In fact two of the councillors who voted (1 for, 1 against) on Monday live in Calne Without so to them it matters not a jot how much our town precept goes up.
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Chepfer
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I dont the problems just on the north side of the town.
The boundary does need updating.
I know that in quarrydale close in the south of the town, half of the road is within and the rest are without. Which makes no sense in terms of the amount of services they have as they are identical.
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Attrebates
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| rosco wrote: |
Althouh a large %age increase, as you say elsewhere it's not that big in absolute terms. Any idea how CTC's take compared to other areas in Wiltshire, i.e. are they costing more or less than other towns? |
I disagree. A 33-40% INCREASE is large in any body's book. in absolute terms it is an enormous amount if you are on a fixed income or indeed recently been made redundant. It HAS to be regarded in context of a recession. It is more than a Mars bar a day and if I can't afford a Mars bar every day then I don't buy one. Utility companies have also raided my Mars bar availability fund and I can't drink petrol even though the price has been forced down.
Do we have the same choice with Council tax ? I think not.
Put the other way if you were an employer and would pay me a 36% rise every year, you would have at least one loyal employee. and people clamouring at the door to get in.
As Peter Dolman says consideration has to be given to the overall absolute council tax rise.
I think that there is a whole range of isssues that need to be investigated, not least, as to why such a rise was deemed necessary/acceptable and can it be reduced. That is before more investigation into the circumstances leading to this totally unacceptable rise.
I have already indicated where some savings could be made and I'm sure that others will have yet other examples. The cash cow that is honest tax payers is drying up. Many have already had their non index linked pensions raided by the exchequor.
Cut costs (and yes jobs too) if it is essential to rebalance the books. The general public has to.
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AndyI
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Attrebates, I agree.
Lets be honest if Calne Without comes into Calne, the Council wont decrease everyone elses council tax accordingly, they will just find another reason to increase it again. We have never ever had so called 'one off' tax increases removed. :(
Although the situation with Calne Without is crazy I dont blame them not wanting to come into Calne, I wouldn't want to either given the way the local taxes keep rising.
That Councillors can vote on a precept rise that does not affect them is also ludicrous. The whole mess just needs sorting out from the ground up fairly and openly.
While I personally think that Calne Without needs to come into Calne and that the residents there should just think themselves lucky they have had a ridiculously cheap precept for so long with the same services as everyone else, I do not feel that the taxes should be anywhere near as high as they are. In this day and age what's to stop us having a fair and honest tax system? Nothing.
I'm pretty sure our Council tax has nearly doubled in the eight years I've lived here but I'd have to look out the bills. How on earth can that be justified. I dont see any extra benefits not to mention the number of houses paying council tax has increased too with all of the building so the tax take has gone up considerably more in real terms than just the percentages were talking about.
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Local lass
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Andy would have to disagree with you there .my parents live in calne with out.there councill tax i think is over two grand a year,not entirely sure on exact figure but i know that ours is small in comparisment.
you say they get the same service?
they have no street lamp,there bin is picked up once a week granted.
they have no street cleaners ,if its icy they dont have gritters they have a salt box on the road.
now i live in calne with .every week we get a street cleaner,we have around 15 street lamps,
are roads are clean .
and any rubbish whats been dumped is picked up with in 24 hours.
if calne with out joined i would think they would have to get one hell of a reduction.
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AndyI
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I'm talking about the precept not the District and County Portions. Mine is over two grand too.
I dont get a street cleaner in my street! I want a reduction for a lesser service :)
Look at the houses inside the bypass which are the ones in question. 300 or so houses. Peter posted the number. They are identical to those around them with the exact same services. I dont know anything about the rest of Calne Without and I dont think anymore houses other than these are in question but Peter would know? I'll defer to him on that because I just dont know.
Aren't street lamps and gritting District controlled though so they should get the same service?
My fault for not clarifying that. Sorry.
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Local lass
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sorry andy :ummm?:
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rosco
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| Attrebates wrote: | | rosco wrote: |
Althouh a large %age increase, as you say elsewhere it's not that big in absolute terms. Any idea how CTC's take compared to other areas in Wiltshire, i.e. are they costing more or less than other towns? |
I disagree. A 33-40% INCREASE is large in any body's book. in absolute terms it is an enormous amount if you are on a fixed income or indeed recently been made redundant. It HAS to be regarded in context of a recession. It is more than a Mars bar a day and if I can't afford a Mars bar every day then I don't buy one. Utility companies have also raided my Mars bar availability fund and I can't drink petrol even though the price has been forced down.
Do we have the same choice with Council tax ? I think not.
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But I think the absolute terms are important. After all, Calne is a small town and, as posted earlier here, it has a lot of things to keep up that smaller places don't have, and less residents than some of the larger places to share the costs amongst.
I would like to see what the overall bill is, included new unitary council, to know what the global tax bill impact would be. And, apart from the grass cutter, I don't see mention made of what the extra funds will pay for to be able to judge if it is a good deal or not.
I don't know, for example, if they are planning to have more funds available to pay for public benefits (such as the reindeer whose absence is being bemoaned in another thread). Maybe it is being planned to do something more on the Skate park, for example?
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Peter Dolman
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I have explained that in addition to the £54,000 on the grass cutting machine, there is £40,000 for more land, approx £43,000 for 2 more groundsmen to cut the grass at Beaversbrook. Then there is 4.5% for pay rises for all the staff, additional cost for the Britain in Bloom competition, more money for computers and CCTV and many more. I suggest you obtain a copy of the budget document from the council offices so you can see for your self.
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Attrebates
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Rosco, I don't need to see any figures to know that a rise of 33% is totally unacceptable in these financially restrained times. I see from Peter's figures that staff get a 4.5% pay rise plus the associated cost in their index linked pensions.
An extremely large proportion fo the ordinary population would love a pay rise of that order, even without the job security and index linking of pensions. I very much hope that the budget did not include an expansion of the beaurocracy and administration.
It is quite simple. Increases in CTC precept of the order of 33% are unjustifiable and just plain wrong in the current economic climate.
There is also the law of diminshing returns. People who cannot pay these increases will get hounded through the courts at even greater cost to the Council. (Sorry. I meant to say US).
Even council members admit that errors have been made and whilst I do not advocate witch hunting somewhere along the line answers have to be found. Maybe a review of costs, priorities, administration etc needs to be enforced to establish where economies can be made.
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rosco
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| Attrebates wrote: | | Rosco, I don't need to see any figures to know that a rise of 33% is totally unacceptable in these financially restrained times. |
If you're not willing to see any figures that would justify such a rise, then it makes discussion rather pointless surely? 8)
Extending your logic further, you're jumping up about an increase that means maybe an extra £50 a year - however, if say the much larger contribution to the district council went up by only 5%, it might mean more in real money leaving your pocket - would you then say the same thing, as it's only a 5% rise?
I'm not trying to have a go or anything, it just seems to me that maybe the bigger picture is being missed.
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Peter Dolman
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I think the big picture is that a 33% increase is not acceptable. The district tax is about the same as the towns, at least it was. The bigest portion of our council tax comes from the county council, police authority and fire service. If they went up by 33% we would be paying an extra £500 a year.
If petrol or electricity or gas or the price of beer went up by 33% would that be acceptable, of course it would not be, so why should be acceptable for the council tax to do so?
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Attrebates
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| Peter Dolman wrote: | I think the big picture is that a 33% increase is not acceptable. The district tax is about the same as the towns, at least it was. The bigest portion of our council tax comes from the county council, police authority and fire service. If they went up by 33% we would be paying an extra £500 a year.
If petrol or electricity or gas or the price of beer went up by 33% would that be acceptable, of course it would not be, so why should be acceptable for the council tax to do so? |
Thank you, Peter. My point exactly.
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short noisy blonde
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Good HousekeepingI think the Councillors should look into all the expenditure firstly, then make cuts to suit. What about getting quotes for the grass cutting, rather than just accepting what those Public Servants in the Town Hall offices say they should accept? Why don't they ask about making cuts in the Town Hall? Some of them are just too rude in that Office!, obviously they run the councillors. I thought Public Servants meant they are there to serve the public?
I read about being a councillor a couple of years ago in the Calne Connection I think. The impression I got was not as I saw in the Town Hall back in the Summer! The meeting was run more like a monkeys tea party!
Seeing as you said Mr Dolman that you were a councillor, will you be putting yourself forward?
And if you will, would you make changes in our town? What would you say was an acceptable increase in our town tax?
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Peter Dolman
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Thats a tricky question to answer and one I have had to address in the past.
I proposed the expenditure of £50,000 as the towns contribution to saving the Leisure Centre. I felt that the cost, for 1 year was jusified as the centre is an asset for all. It cost every house approx £8.50. While there was some opposition there was far more support for spending the money.
I cannot condone the current increase for 2 reasons.
Firstly I believe that the sports ground maintenance should be contracted out, we cannot afford the capital expenditure at this time. I also do not think its justified.
Secondly unlike the grant to the Leisure Centre this was an increase that was permanent and there is the potential for even more increases in the future.
I feel that a number of councillors were "bullied" into voting for the budget, its a pity that those councillors did not have the strength of convictions to vote for what is right.
The budget was in principle put together by the finance committee which consists of 3 councillors plus the mayor and deputy mayor.Of the 3 committee members 1 was absent, 1 voted to support it and the 3rd abstained. The mayor did not vote, althought she could have and the deputy mayor voted to support it.
ONLY 2 OUT OF A POSSIBLE 5 MEMBERS OF THE FINANCE COMMITTEE VOTED TO SUPPORT THIS BUDGET.
Its amazing that anyone else voted for it given their obvious enthusiasim for it.
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Chloebramley
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I stumbled on this info after reading the Gazette and Herald this week about the 2 councillors resigning. Took ages to find out anything then found this forum.
All I can say is I have e-mailed the mayor today venting my fury at this ridiculous 33% price hike.
I for one will spread the word if every one complains hopefully they may have a rethink. But then again if they think the residents of Calne can easily find an extra 33% plus increase for the council tax they probably live in cloud cuckoo land.
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Attrebates
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| Chloebramley wrote: | I stumbled on this info after reading the Gazette and Herald this week about the 2 councillors resigning. Took ages to find out anything then found this forum.
All I can say is I have e-mailed the mayor today venting my fury at this ridiculous 33% price hike.
I for one will spread the word if every one complains hopefully they may have a rethink. But then again if they think the residents of Calne can easily find an extra 33% plus increase for the council tax they probably live in cloud cuckoo land. |
As this has already been approved by the council and given that CTC are not world famous for reversing their decisions (no matter how perverse), I would not hold your breath waiting for it to happen.
Incidentally we are four years away from being able to express our discontent at the ballot box as they voted themselves an extra long period in office to cover the change to Unitary authority.
Peter Dolman's posts are worthwhile reading on this aspect.
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Peter Dolman
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We can of course, if you live in the right ward, give vent to you anger in the bye elections.
There is a requirement to force a bye election and that is at least 10 electors in the ward must write to the council requesting an election. If this does not happen the council can co-opt anyone. If this happens then we could end up with more of the same!
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Peter Dolman
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Along with many town & parish councils Calne Leisure Centre have announced that prices will be frozen next year.
The town council did support the leisure centre to the tune of £25,000 a year for the last 2 years but next year they will not be receiving a penny from the council.
How come residents of Calne will be paying an extra 33% for their town precept?
It makes the decision of the town council even more perverse!
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Dexter the Flexter
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I've noticed on the Gazette website that both Chippenham and Marlborough town councils are considering not to increase their element of the Council Tax for the forthcoming financial year to help their residents during the current financial troubles.
Seems to be opposite to Calne TC's decision to impose a hefty increase.
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Peter Dolman
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I understand that Trowbridge is also looking to have no increase in their town precept. It seems that the norm is no increase unlike in Calne!
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Chepfer
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What can we do about it Peter ?
Is there a formal complaint process etc, or a way to make it more officially known ?!
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Peter Dolman
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Apart from complaining to your local councillor there is nothing you can do. The votes have been cast and the decision made there is no way back!
Decisions made by the full council cannot be revisited for 6 months and by that time the rate demand will have been sent out to one and all!
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